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Post by morgan on Nov 25, 2005 17:38:04 GMT -5
Interestingly enough, a good rule of thumb is to find a breeder with whom you'll have a positive, ongoing relationship. Thinking about my own experience and the experiences that Maugh, Stewart and Ed all refer to; this seems the key.
Dave
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Post by jsf13 on Nov 25, 2005 18:07:18 GMT -5
Interestingly enough, a good rule of thumb is to find a breeder with whom you'll have a positive, ongoing relationship. Thinking about my own experience and the experiences that Maugh, Stewart and Ed all refer to; this seems the key. Dave I would think that would be invaluable to the breeder as well.
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alex
Hunter/worker
Posts: 130
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Post by alex on Dec 1, 2005 14:53:31 GMT -5
Thanks to everyone for your inputs.
Alex.
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Post by hicntry on Dec 1, 2005 16:00:38 GMT -5
As moderator of the board, I stay out of many of the threads concerning pups and breeders as I see it as somewhat a conflict of interest on the part of the moderator, but, what Michael said about the 25% breeding coefficient, being a problem "if you are planning on breeding the dog needs another facett added to it. It is also of extreme benefit if, the outcross is just as good and unrelated. It adds real spark to a heavily bred line.
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Post by jsf13 on Dec 1, 2005 17:14:20 GMT -5
I think what the old time bulldoggers called a "battlecross"
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Post by hicntry on Dec 1, 2005 18:37:08 GMT -5
Or, commonly called Hybrid Vigor. It is most noticeable when the outcross is to another breed altogether. That is what is really going to be interesting as far as Pete's greyhound and Geronimo, both tightly bred dogs of different breeds. Heck, Pete might not be able to handle them.LOL ;D ;D
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Post by thistlesdale on Nov 29, 2009 15:29:33 GMT -5
An Ohio dog out of Cabin Hill x Mooreland was the flat out naturally strongest Airedale for this work I had ever seen. He came from a fellow that ran hounds and bred just a few Airedales. I'm trying to find whatever I can on cabin hill right now any info will be appreciated
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Post by ed on Nov 29, 2009 22:11:29 GMT -5
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Post by oksaradt on Dec 2, 2009 13:25:59 GMT -5
It is important to identify the kind of work you want to do and then start looking at lines of Airedales that do this work. I think it is important to find a breeder that has experience in the general kind of work you want to pursue. Otherwise the breeder might make a bad choice for you simply out of ignorance. When I import dogs from Germany I work with a breeder who has been a close personal friend for 20 years. She respects me and I know I can count on getting a good dog from her. I personally would not import a dog from an unknown breeder. I have had Hiltrud check out other litters and have had her son in law (who is a KFT Schutzhund judge) check out dogs, e.g. Ferris von Sellhornshof for possible import. But I would never import a dog out of the blue. Just because people here have imported dogs does not mean they know what they are doing. They could have unknowingly imported "rejects" and if they are not active trainers or don't do any work with their dogs, the flaws in these dogs may never become known. It is through working with or training dogs that we find what they are truly made of. And as I believe Don said, when you find one you really like, try to get a dog from its parents. I do not think you gain much information from a "puppy aptitude test". The sampling theorem would tell you it is sheer insanity to try to predict what you're getting on the basis of a single sample. And has others have already said, the key factor to look for in a breeder is "honesty" and also someone who takes a good hard look at their dogs. Maugh I disagree with Maugh on testing puppies not being a good predictor, but then I don't utilize pressure on my dogs. They work for me because I found those that wanted to do the work up front....with testing. I recently testing a litter produced from a German-german breeding because I figured it was my only chance to see what all the stink was about. The Dam was nice and a good worker, but I've seen equivalent Airedales locally. She was larger than show stock, a plus in my mind. Testing this litter that was to produce great working stock helped me out in a great way. The puppies had not been introduced to the outdoors more than 20 minutes in 6 weeks. I've tested airedales in 20F after a snowstorm that took the wind and snow in stride. These puppies were as shocked by the great outdoors as anything else and it was a very pleasant calm day in the low 50Fs. As my dogs have to go into the worst of the outdoors that man can produce and still live to talk about it, I need stock that is not only comfortable outdoors but loves it there. Other than that, the testing was predictable in that there were a few stars, a few pet quality, and a lot of in-betweens. None of the stars had what I needed. Even if you find a breeder that works dogs in the same venue that you are in, the chances are that they work the dogs the same way you do are slim......Unless they trained you, I suppose. I'm a result of lots of trainers, lots of reading, lots of working my dogs and training others' dogs. I've tested close to 52 litters now for myself and others. Even with the best breeder, it's the only way to choose. The cute factor goes out the window and the star walks up and bites you in the nose (so to speak) where the choice from the results is made for you. After that you only have to plead with the breeder to let you have this great puppy. More often it allows you to leave a litter behind that just didn't have what you needed. I expect a breeder to provide good health for the Dam(as in good stock as well as everything else), a safe varied enviornment for the puppies, a decent food. If the breeder decides he/she can select the puppy I need from their litter, I consider it a warning sign. The culture of breeders tends to promote the "I know best for my puppies" attitude....my opinion is fine, then you keep them all and you train them. Two of my dogs over the years came from the same breeder, but from two entirely different lines. I got the advantage/opportunity to test both a litter from my first dog's line and the breeder's other pair's offspring. The first dog's line had nothing I could use. The other line produced three possibles of which my dog and I chose one. Breeding great lines only gives you possibilities. Never think it gives you guarantees on temperment or performance. Jim
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Post by ed on Dec 3, 2009 10:53:02 GMT -5
I recently testing a litter produced from a German-german breeding because I figured it was my only chance to see what all the stink was about. The Dam was nice and a good worker, but I've seen equivalent Airedales locally. She was larger than show stock, a plus in my mind.
Testing this litter that was to produce great working stock helped me out in a great way. The puppies had not been introduced to the outdoors more than 20 minutes in 6 weeks. I've tested airedales in 20F after a snowstorm that took the wind and snow in stride. These puppies were as shocked by the great outdoors as anything else and it was a very pleasant calm day in the low 50Fs. As my dogs have to go into the worst of the outdoors that man can produce and still live to talk about it, I need stock that is not only comfortable outdoors but loves it there. Other than that, the testing was predictable in that there were a few stars, a few pet quality, and a lot of in-betweens. None of the stars had what I needed. Even if you find a breeder that works dogs in the same venue that you are in, the chances are that they work the dogs the same way you do are slim......Jim I visited and tested the same litter at 8 weeks. My interest was that I had seen both dogs at the HWA Nationals in Ohio at the working dog seminar. Also spent a lot of time with Arthus the father of the litter, did obedience protection etc.See video below done in Germany when he was just a youngster and without titles. I also found a significant variation in the litter. All of the pups had been exposed daily to a mini Agility course as this was the interest of the breeder. Despite a lot of conditioning there were marked differences. After about 2 hours of running through each pup with notes on response to loud sudden noise, nape of the neck lift, food desire bite/grip, overall activity, dominance submission etc i had a few very likely prospects for sport. One particularly stood out and I would have taken him home but he was as most already spoken for to "Agility" homes. As I was leaving the breeders husband who is not a dog guy told me of the 12 prospects he knew the one I should take. Damn if he didn't pick the exact one I wanted! there is a lot to be said for just watching a litter over time. www.von-bella-donna.de/arthus.htm
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Post by oksaradt on Dec 3, 2009 16:33:09 GMT -5
Ed, Breeder's husband was there for all my testing. Breeder's husband is a very smart and observant fellow. Listening to all the dog people that have been through his house for that litter, I'd be surprised if he couldn't pick well at that point.
I'm glad they got tested a 2nd time. I felt bad for the breeder that the results got skewed due to lack of exposure to the outdoors.
Jim
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Post by maugh on Dec 5, 2009 6:45:09 GMT -5
I had an interesting experience with this same breeder. I was actually going to get a puppy to raise along with my black lab Blake to see what influence training two different pups the same way might have on how they turn out. I was going to let the breeder pick the pup for me. When it came time, she presented me with a 4 page contract detailing that I must take the puppy for "socialization" and "motivational puppy training" at a Pet-Smart or a class held at a veterinarian. I have 30 + years of intensive training experience. I explained how the retriever training incorporate socialization and that we had about 6 puppies in our training group. Do we use a clicker? No. What good is a clicker when a young pup has just dominated a clipped-wing at 200 ft? Or a young dog that goes after the bite pillow? Yes, a lot of tug work helps build the calm mouth that a bird dog needs too. I tried to explain all that and she just came unglued. I tried to explain that the clicker training would actually get in the way of the early exposure to retriever work that I wanted to do and had already done with Blake. So I didn't get the pup. So yes, you need to deal with a breeder that has some respect for you and with whom you can build a relationship. Training anything but agility and ralley is just plain out of that breeder's comfort zone. Getting Blake was very simple. The field trialer (he had 4 dogs entered in the Nationals; Blake's father made it through the 6th series) recommended me because I had gotten to know him over the summer and showed up twice a week to watch him train. His father, also a field trialer but retired, had almost daily contact with the litter, and he and the breeder picked out the pup for me. I drove down to Georgia to pick him up. The breeder just handed him over with his papers, microchip, and a simple contract covering major physical defects. The breeder/field trialer knew what I wanted. That is key. I'll be training with the field trialer this summer. For description of field trial retriever nationals, www.working-retriever.com/Just a side, I will get another Airedale puppy in time from my breeder friend in Germany, but unfortunately I can't raise it side by side with Blake. Also, if I were to get an Airedale from someone such as Don or Ed or Stew, I would definitely want them to pick the pup for me. Puppies change a lot, they grow at different rates, and I value the input from a breeder that knows what I'm looking for, who has daily contact with the pups. Regards, Maugh
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Post by oksaradt on Dec 5, 2009 14:15:08 GMT -5
Ouch, a contract that actually mandates Pet's Mart Training? That would definitely be a deal breaker for me. One of the reasons that clicker training gives me hives is from observing the Pet's Mart classes supervised by novices reading their tips from notecards while my dog is doing an off-lead down-stay and I shop the aisles.
Jim
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