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Post by hicntry on Mar 10, 2006 15:11:28 GMT -5
It is impossible to avoid bringing the ATCA into a discussion an breeding for working abilities. I am going to have to make this a series of observations about this group....our US breed club. The overseers of "our breed". First off, I have to submit to you, the AKC should not take sole responsibility for the slow deterioration of the breed. The ATCA has to accept the larger portion of the burden for this decay. The standard is a guideline of what showbreeders of the day, perceived as the "perfect" airedale.....not the only airedales. It states the optimum size and appearance and temperament. Folks, it is a guideline. It is not the absolute law. The problem, as I see it is not with the standard as it is merely a guideline of the "perfect airedale.....the problem is the many elitists in this political organization. They control all newcomers coming into it through intimidation. If you don't see things the way the established old timers do, you will have a tough time ever succeeding in the show world. My dogs are good looking dogs but they are too big. According to the standard, I get a 10 pt deduction. In the eyes of the controlling segment of the ATCA, I am ruining "their breed" and should be forever banished. You will find this interesting. (Ch MJ Traymar Auspicious Occasion) belonging to Margo Dupree is almost 70lbs. My guess is he has been used for stud, and being over sized she still gets by with bragging on him as though he is within the standard. He is not. If one of the veterans (and controllers) of this elitist organization can have a dog out of the standard, what is the matter with a 75 or 80lb dog? Of course, to here them tell it they breed to standard? ? There are 75lb champion females and I have heard of an 80lb male with his championship. The fact is, these people that cry the loudest about the working dog ruining the breed, produce many out of the standard dogs. They are sold as pet quality but they still came from their ranks. When they say they are the keepers of the standard, they are in part telling the truth, as they only keep the ones that fall within the standard. I got a lot of off list emails from people that are part of the lists that I was recently taken off of. Believe me, they are not nearly as hypocritical as the body that sets the rules in the ATCA. Many of them are very unhappy that I was not kept on so they could hear something other than the dictates from the matriarchs of the organization. Believe me, I am not putting the show dogs down as I believe there are many that still have the potential given the right breeding. I "am" putting down the hypocritical elitists that claim to follow their own rules while destroying yet another breed of working dog. When this organization is supported with your monies, you are also responsible for the downfall of the working airedale. Think about this. The most talked about dog to ever show up at the H/W tests was a dog called Lugnut. A big old hairy beast that rode in on top of a tool box in the back of the truck. Why is he still talked about after all these years? He was the real deal. Did he fit the standard? No. They still talk about Lugnut because he epitomized what their dogs are not....he was a hunter and he was so good everyone took notice. Can you "successfully" breed for show and working ability? The key word is "successfully". No you cannot. Why? To do so every showbreeder would have to work their dogs so they can judge their breeding program. That will never happen. They know they can never compete with dogs that are specifically bred to work. The result, they are competing against each other in totally trained events. Trained events people......as in not really needing all the natural traits. Half of their success is dependent on the trainer. I will close for this first of many in this series. You can thank Pauline and the many others at the ATCA for the above observations along with the rest that will be coming. In reading some of the recent posts on the ATCA list.....well....lets just say they inspired me to put in a good word for them. Thanks Pauline....and yes there is a good following and it is going to get bigger. Don Turnipseed High Country Airedales www.huntingairedales.com
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Post by Rick L on Mar 10, 2006 18:23:20 GMT -5
"what is the matter with a 75 or 80lb dog? "
damn don those ain't stagdales those are tweeners.
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Post by ed on Mar 10, 2006 18:37:55 GMT -5
"Can you "successfully" breed for show and working ability? The key word is "successfully". No you cannot"
Don this is a point of contention that arises in every hunting or working breed. For example in Germany, where thousands of German Shepherds are bred show breeders seek working titles to legitamize what they produce. Yes, in a watered down small trial they can get a title on their dog (sometimes) but only the most naive would believe these are working dogs. To compare them to those from Czech or the few remaining German working kennels is ridiculous. IMHO the success of the Malanois has been both due to the decline of other working breeds and the very minimal influence "show" breeding in the Mal. Its stylish cousin the Turveran is almost never seen in a working situation.
The same story is true in bird dogs, hounds and racing greyounds.(they are not even AKC registered). There are dogs that do and dogs that pose.
With all due respect the problem for Airedales are that there are so few exceptional working dogs that there is no visible standard for working or hunting excellence. Anyone can claim they have a Schutzhund or hunting Airedale. But there are so few to be seen and so few venues for them to be seen we really are left with is a lot of talk. In this environment a show breeder or anyone else can claim anything they wish,without facts on the ground we are left with a debating society. What would help many who say what the Airedale could or would is to come to H/W and see for yourself. Its not perfect but its a lot better than yada yada yada.
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Post by maugh on Mar 10, 2006 19:10:26 GMT -5
Ed, Great post! Maugh
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Post by hicntry on Mar 10, 2006 19:23:35 GMT -5
Well Ed, I am just plain scared to go. The controlling faction, and some of the controlled, of the ATCA Show breeders par excellence, have already informed me that these dogs are as capable(if not more so) as any working bred dog because they are showbred by the best. Apparently they make their decisions through visions cast down from a higher source when it comes to breeding. Their out of the standard dogs are OK!! Why??? Simply because they are theirs. Yes, they even breed to dogs well out of the standard, they also produce dogs well out of the standard. In the recent discussions on the ATCA board, Pauline made it quite evident that she felt it was not good for the general masses hear my heretical views on this subject of breeding working dogs, so it was good that I was removed. Are they afraid the members are to stupid to make up their own minds, or are they afraid they can't support the stand they have chosen to take. There is not a hunter I have ever met that would put down a good working dog regardless of his background or breeding. The ATCA members have taken the stand of, "do it right to the standard or don't do it because you are ruining the breed." I beg to differ. Although I really don't think you can mix the two goals successfully( as is evidenced by the working qualities of their dogs and what they call working), I do think that the standard itself is not that restrictive and has enough latitude build right in for the "real working dog" and the show dog. The dinosaurs con tolling the ATCA have just accepted that NO variation from the perfect dog be acceptable(Unless they are doing the varying obviously). If this was to be the original intent of the standards, I am pretty sure there would be no deductions considered in the standard as written as they wouldn't have been needed. As far as the H/W, I think it is great and it is a first step. The next obvious step is to disassociate themselves from the ATCA and, for my money the UKC is the perfect place for the airedale as a working breed. This is where all of the working breeds end up or they go the way of the cocker spaniel. The UKC is where the working dogs belong. The UKC is where the working airedale will end up if it is to survive as a true worker. One of the biggest advantages with the UKC is that the airedale, would be seen and heard and recognized by sportsmen.... It will surely suffer a slow, malingering death at the hands of the ATCA.
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Post by hicntry on Mar 10, 2006 22:06:12 GMT -5
Joe put this link up in the protection forum but I think this is an opportune time to post it here also. The UKC not only offers all the hunting opportunities but now offers protection, SAR, obedience and who know what else. Check it out. Overall, the ATCA offers very little to the working dog. The opportunities for the working airedales are unlimited with the UKC. They will help promote the working airedale instead of hold it down as the ATCA does. It isn't rocket science folks. www.servicedogsofamerica.com/index.htm
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Post by Wolfer on Mar 10, 2006 23:06:22 GMT -5
Kinda curious..... without having to do a bunch of checking on my own . how does the ukc recognize Airedales? I know years ago and i had beagles i always made sure they were UKC registered do to the fact UKC Promotes WORKING dogs unlike the walkie talkies in the AKC.
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Post by hicntry on Mar 10, 2006 23:13:22 GMT -5
Kyle, the new program is an all breed program. As far as hunting, I don't think they would turn away a good hunting breed if they wanted in and were serious. As you said, they are all about the working dogs. They may already have some places they would fit into as many cur strains and dales hunt alike.
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Post by southern on Mar 11, 2006 9:40:38 GMT -5
As I have stated before, they came after me on color. Next all of us will be looking at each other as the ATCA and the AKC controls size
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Post by Undercover Cowboy on Mar 11, 2006 10:07:02 GMT -5
When I had my Airedales they were UKC registered.. the way I understood it it was because AKC wouldn't recognize Bogan the male from South Africa ..
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Post by Doggitter on Mar 11, 2006 12:58:30 GMT -5
I think you kow how much the show segment of the animal game rubs me bad Don. But I'd like to know the actual method that was used to determine what the "standard" became. What fool came to put down on paper that a certain criteria is what all AT's should be? The whole notion of having "rules" that every dog in a breed be the same thing just ticks me off typing this. I may be ignorant of the basics of showing but I do know it feels wrong in my gut.
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Post by Doggitter on Mar 11, 2006 13:06:06 GMT -5
What is H/W? I assume it's hunting/working but I see it here as a name of something. Hey, the brains not in gear yet!
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Post by hicntry on Mar 11, 2006 16:05:21 GMT -5
The Huntinting/working program is sposored thru the ATCA and is affiliated with them. It is a good program for startes but I can't see the ATCA letting them get anywhere serious or they may have to start finding out what working dogs are.
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Post by hicntry on Mar 11, 2006 16:57:13 GMT -5
I just got off the AKC site. I was going over the standards. It says the ears should not be houndy nor small but should be commensurate with the size of the dog. If that is the case, my dogs do not have houndy ears, they do fit the size, Now, no where did I see anything of a disqualification, but, it stated that being far over the size( and several other things), should be severely penalized.....as in a 10 pt deduction. Well, I guess in a round about way that is saying that losing 10 pts is disqualifying with the competition out there. So, it comes down to disqualified from what? Just the show ring! Well that just breaks my heart to know I can't show my dogs. I find it interesting that all the famous hunting kennels had large airedales....never heard of one with the standard issue. One of the most widely accepted terms in the airedale world is Oorang. It is synonymous with bigger airedales. The term has survived almost a century and is still commonly used. Most people are not even aware that Lingo also had small airedales. Why not?? Could it be they just were not as impressive standing next to an 85lber. Could it be this is why the ATCA people are so touchy about the bigger airedales. It appears throughout history, the standards have taken the back seat. Well heck, no wonder the show folks are so defensive and insecure. Just a thought. Here is another thought that is fact, good dogs come in every size. What holds the ATCA show bred dogs back is the breeding for show and nothing else. You have to realize, you get what you breed for for the most part., In the show world, one good working dog out of hundreds, means they are successfully breeding working dogs. Maybe where they have gone wrong is that, in a litter of show dogs, one, maybe two, have real potential. Because of the very low numbers of outstanding dogs they produce for show, getting one working dog out of numerous litters must seem like real success to them. Especially considering the fact they were not breeding for a working dog anyway. Could it be that through the low numbers in show breeding, they have totally lost sight about breeding being all about consistency. Established working breeders would expect to see 8 out of 10 doing well from a litter. The numbers of good working dogs coming from show lines is atrocious. Out of all pups produced by these folks, there should be a substantial number of good workers if they were truly breeding for ability. This fact tells me they are not breeding for ability or traits......they breed for looks.
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Post by jsf13 on Mar 11, 2006 17:22:32 GMT -5
Here is the UKC standard.
AIREDALE TERRIER Official U.K.C. Breed Standard Copyright 1991, United Kennel Club, Inc
History
The Airedale is the largest of all the Terrier breeds. Its origins date back to the mid-1800s, when authorities on the breed believe it was developed as a result of the cross of the Otterhound and the now-extinct Black & Tan Terrier. They were developed in the valley of the River Aire in south Yorkshire, England. These early crosses were called Working, Waterside or Bingley Terriers. They were used for hunting fox, badger, weasel, otter and river rats, plus other small game.
The patriarch of the breed is considered to be Ch. Master Briar (1897-1906). Two of his sons, Crompton Marvel and Monarch, also made important contributions to the breed. The latter was imported to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
The Airedale Terrier was recognized by United Kennel Club in 1914.
General Appearance
The Airedale is the largest of all Terriers, and was bred as a hunting and working dog. It has a harsh, tight coat that is black and tan in color. It has a moderately long, erect, docked tail.
Considered the King of Terriers, it is now used for multiple purposes, from police work to family pet. All characteristics related to the breed's versatility are to be maintained.
Characteristics
Airedales are above all fearless, and majestic in appearance. Their courage is unquestioned, but they are not quarrelsome. The Airedale's proud character is denoted in the carriage of ears and tail. They have quick movement and are always ready for action. They are alert and are a good protection and family dog.
Head
The skull should be long and flat, not too broad. The stop is hardly visible. The scalp is free of wrinkles. There is little apparent difference between the length of the skull and the foreface. The foreface should be deep, powerful and muscular. The lips are tight.
TEETH - A full compliment of strong, white teeth meet in a level or vice-like (pincer) bite. A slightly overlapping or scissors bite is permissible, without preference.
EYES - Dark and small, not prominent. Full of keenness, intelligence and terrier expression.
NOSE - Black. Not too small.
EARS - V-shaped, with a carriage rather to the side of the head, but not pointing to the eyes. Small and in proportion to the size of the dog. The topline of the folded ear should be above the level of the skull.
Fault: Hound-type ear.
Neck
Should be clean with tight skin. It is one of moderate length and thickness, gradually widening toward the shoulders.
Forequarters
The shoulders are long and well laid back. The shoulder blades are flat. The depth of the chest is on an approximate level with the elbows.
FORELEGS - The forelegs are perfectly straight with plenty of muscle and bone. The elbows are perpendicular to the body, working free of the sides.
Body
The body is short, strong and level. The ribs are well sprung. The chest is deep but not too broad.
The loins are of good width and muscular. There is little space between the last rib and the hip joint.
Hindquarters
The hindquarters are long and muscular, without drooping.
HIND LEGS - The thighs are long and powerful, with muscular second thighs. The stifles are well bent. The hocks are well let down and parallel to each other when viewed from the rear.
Faults: Stifles turned in or out.
Feet
The feet are small, round and compact. They have a good depth of pad, and the toes are moderately arched.
Faults: Toes turned in or out. White feet.
Tail
The tail is docked to a fair length. It is of good strength and substance and is carried high.
Fault: Tail curled over the back.
Coat
The coat is hard, dense and wiry. It is straight and close, covering the dog close well over the body and legs. Some of the hardest coats are crinkling or just slightly waved. At the base of the very stiff hair is a shorter growth of softer hair (undercoat).
Faults: Coat too long or ragged. Soft outer coat.
Color
The head and ears are tan, the ears being a darker shade. Darker markings on either side of the skull are permissible. The legs, thighs, elbows and underside of the body and chest are also tan.
The sides and upper part of the body are black or grizzled. A red mixture is often found in the black and is not considered objectionable.
A small white blaze on the chest is characteristic of certain strains of the breed.
Disqualification: Artificial coloring. Artificial stiffening of the hair coat. Albinism.
Height and Weight
Males, approximately 23 inches at the shoulder. Females, slightly smaller.
Both sexes are sturdy, well muscled and well boned. Weight is commensurate with height.
Gait
Movement is free. When viewed from the front, the forelegs should swing perpendicular from the body and free from the sides. The feet are the same distance apart as the elbows. When viewed from the rear, the hind legs should be parallel with each other giving a well balanced stance and movement.
Fault: Poor movement.
Disqualifications
Movement is free. When viewed from the front, the forelegs should swing perpendicular from the body and free from the sides. The feet are the same distance apart as the elbows. When viewed from the rear, the hind legs should be parallel with each other giving a well balanced stance and movement.
Fault: Poor movement
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