Great discussions Working vs Conformation

[hicntry]

Recently, the discussions have been extremely interesting and conducted in a civil manner. While I am sure that the conformation people see the working people as not willing to see their arguments, the same is true in reverse. The thing is, discussions are a compilation of opposing views. No more, no less. While one point should be understood, the conformation dog is aesthetically, a more chiseled work of art in my eyes, it is structurally not capable of"satisfying the needs or wants" of a hunter. This is no less true about the working dog, it will never be the conformation persons cup tea. While the working people have no illusions of their working dogs walking into the show ring and winning, the conformation people do have an illusion that the conformation dogs can take to the field and be the equal of the working bred dog. They feel that conformation and working ability is possible in their breeding. Personally, I don't for several reasons.
1), Judy Howell said it best. Her pups were tested for SAR and one male scored high. She sold the dog off as pet quality because it didn't fit the conformation standard she was looking for. This would be the same case regardless of the goals, working ability or show. I would get rid of the picture perfect conformation dog if it were not at the extreme, high end in working ability. That is reality. It makes no difference if the dog came from the same gene pool as the champions to Judy. That same dog may have the ability to produce more champions than any other dog in the litter and possibly instill some of those working genetics into the mix. She has champions and less won't do. The working end folks are the same. I have plenty of working dogs and, as Ed said, "Handsome is as handsome does". If handsome doesn't do, he is out here.
2) Conformation people are hungry to see a dog that has working ability. They compete against each other. Yes, they truly want to prove the conformation dog has what it takes. While that is noble and I respect that, there is a general lack of understanding of what an outstanding working dog can do and what a quality working dog is in the eyes of a working person. I might suggest that a few conformation people bite the bullet and try to place a few of their future conformation champions (not their pet quality dogs) in the right hands
and let professionals try to work them in schutzhund, fur, and feather and find out just how capable they are. Only then will conformation people have any credibility when they say "my dog could do that if I wanted him to".

I am not picking on the conformation people here. It only seems that way because conformation people are the only ones desperate enough to need to prove themselves right, that they make one unsubstantiated claim after another. Working people are not going to claim their dogs are capable of show titles, agility titles in a small ring or any such nonsense. If I was to say Geronimo could hold his own in the show ring, I could only expect to take more than a little flack from the conformation side. It works both ways here.

The real good that is derived from these discussions is for the people getting into airedales. The novices. I am not going to change anyones mind about conformation dogs and the fallacy of the standard being perfect. There is no one perfect standard for working dogs. The environment will determine what is perfect. I have heard that the standard has been around for over a hundred years and while that is true, I don't recall the standard mentioning the profuse coats the conformation dogs have. Although they are accepted by all, I seem to recall something about the coat laying close and tight and "not be to long". Most of the conformation dogs have a profuse coat that lends itself well to profuse clipping in the right places. The coat mentioned in the "standard" would not need all the clipping and shaping....unless I am misinterpreting what it says. Maybe the standard really means"after it is clipped and shaped by a high price groomer".

[Judy Howell]

Don,
I really wish you wouldn't use terms such as "sold him off as just a pet", I sold that puppy to the buyers I had available at the time who made it very clear to me that they wanted and deserved THE male puppy in my litter who most closely met the criteria of what they were looking for....a bold puppy who could do a decent job of guarding their acreage. IF I had a prospect for SAR you can bet I would have sold that puppy to them (after holding on to him for another couple of weeks and having Kim retest him as she expressed a desire to). Yes indeed, many of us would love to see our puppies go to real working homes, but they are few and far between. Until we find the folks who will "prove" our dogs abilities we are certainly "barking in the dark" about their real or imagined capabilities. HOWEVER, you yourself have proved my hypothesis Don....that many of our show dogs have the "stuff" it takes to make working dogs, given the opportunity....as those two dogs from show bloodlines that you used for the foundation of your breeding program. Where do you think that hunting appitude came from if not from within the genetic makeup of those dogs you started with? And that puppy in my litter that tested with a very high aptitude for SAR work came from THE gene pool that my champion showdogs come from....so what's to argue about? And remember I also said that a puppy from another breeder's litter who was sired by the same dog as my litter IS in a home where he is being trained for SAR and according to the reports I am getting is doing very well.
I live in NW Montana, very close to Glacier Park and here alot of oldtimers talk about the rangers and their airedales making short work of the excess grizzly bear population (and that is another reason I chose this breed....we like to go out huckleberry picking in the summer and that is prime bear habitat and I wanted a dog to take with me that wouldn't come running and hide behind me if he found a bear or a bear found us!). Lest I digress further....several of my pups have gone to homes in NW Montana where they are out hiking, etc. with their owners and I would like to relate a story and see what you on this board think in terms of what it indicates about the dog's character (since I don't really do much with my dogs to test it):
This male pup (who is a full sibling to my Am/Can CH. Monterra so Many Stars....aka "Tuesday"....just the prettiest little showgirl one could imagine....but a real sparkplug, as well) was placed with a couple who I knew planned on doing alot of outdoor activity in the mountains and valleys of NW Montana....he was the "first" to do alot of things (and again, I REALLY like his attitude, but he didn't appear to have everything I wanted to keep in a male) so I thought they would be a good home for him, as they wanted an athletic dog who would go with them everywhere (not a couch potato). I encourage my puppy people to keep in touch with me and I like to find out as much as I can about their temperament, health, etc. as they mature. So...his owner came by for a visit and we had a nice chat and I asked him if Monty liked to swim. Oh yes, he was a wonderful swimmer...and then he proceeded to tell me about an incident the summer before when the dog was just about a year old. They were out in a little boat with him on a high mountain lake. Looking to shore they saw a young bear on the edge of the lake....at the same time they noticed Monty's nose was high in the air and he was becoming very agitated. Before they knew what happened he had jumped from the boat and began swimming toward the shore where the bear was. This couple had done some very good obedience work with Monty and they immediately asked him to come back to the boat, and he did. So....does this indicate a dog that is bold and fearless or just reckless...or what?...has this dog been stripped of all his airedale instincts through generations of breeding for showdogs?
Just curious,
Judy Howell

[hicntry]

Point taken Judy. Sold off does sound a bit harsh compared to placed in a home. It was not meant to be harsh, it was just pointing out the true problem that exists in breeding for two goals. I know the genetics are still there. That is why I use my foundation dogs as examples so often. They were fantastic dogs and about as well equipped when it came to desire. I never hide that fact either as I would like to see more working dogs come from the show lines. I also don't hide the fact that, as time progressed, my newer generations produced from these dogs, were heartier, faster, and stronger. Having all the desire is only part of the equation in a working dog. Their ability is directly tied to how capable they are to handle their environment and the game they pursue. Thank you for being candid in the fact that your priority is for conformation. That is no less than what is needed to succeed and produce good dogs that meet your goal standards. My priority is for working ability and, because of the environment, it is necessary to stray from the standard to achieve a dog that can keep pace with a fleeing bear or has the ability to ground track for miles like a hound. Their test is not carried out at the edge of a pond but in vast ranges of rugged, forested mountains full of other predators. When the dogs are not retrieved for several days and nights, there can be no mistaking, these dogs are not going to make an easy meal for any of the predators. While I admit to being worried sick when I lost Titan for 2 1/2 days by himself at 6 months old, I never worry about the adults. Coyotes were a real concern with Titan. Effective fur dogs are predators. It is raw talent. A point of interest that is not widely known in conformation circles. Airedales and curs are considered meat dogs, They are silent hunters that hunt to catch. Hounds are sporting dogs that like to chase for the love of running game.

I have spent time fishing Silver Lake, Georgetown Lake, fly fished the Big Hole river(which I loved) Lake Mary Ronan, Flathead. Been on the Highway to the Sun in Glacier(i think that is what it was called). My uncle was a State Senator(Eugene Mahoney) out of Thompson Falls. Grandfather was warden at the state prison in Deer Lodge. Had a number of cousins that worked the copper smelter between Anaconda and Butte which I think has long since closed down. I used to catch a lot of fish in the creek running through the city park in Anaconda....but I digress into a bit of history of about 45+ years past.LOL

[Maverick]

Judy -

A very nice post! I appreciate the time effort you put into it. It is very unfortunate that there are not more working and hunting homes for Airedales. But, the problem is that very few Airedales can compete even in the versatile dog arena. Therein lies "catch 22". There are not enough working and/or hunting homes for Airedales, because there are not enough Airedales that can compete with the popular working and hunting breeds at their level. It's not like hunters are afraid to try something new. The Jagd Terriers (German Hunt Terriers) have come on strong in the last 30 years or so, and there are other examples of breeds new to the US hunting scene, or have migrated beyond the region where they were developed. There is only one reason for this, they had more talent in one or more areas than the many breeds already being used. A hundred years ago, the Airedale was a very popular breed amongst hunters. What happened to that popularity? Did hunters get tired of looking at them, and want something new? No, many of the hound and bird dog breeds trace their ancestry far back before the Airedale was conceived. Maybe the job of the Airedale has become obsolete? No, the species that they hunted are still around and hunted in much the same way. True, there is less area to hunt and less hunters, but the decline of the Airedale as a hunter has far outpaced the decline in hunting areas or hunters. Hunters used to add Airedales to their pack for fight. Is there no need for fight now? Apparently not, as Pit Bull blood is mixed into a number of hunting breeds just for that. Why don't they avoid the hassle of all this crossbreeding, and get an Airedale? Well here are a few reasons it is rare to find Airedales hunting bears, one of the game animals Airedales excelled at hunting in "the old days":

-- Coat: If Airedales had the coat the standard calls for, there would be no problem. The vast majority of hunters are not groomers. They hunt their dogs with the coat in the natural state. A show coated Airedale will get woollier than a sheep if left alone, and has nothing to do with a sound conformation, except in a negative way.

-- Endurance: To run bears, you have to have a dog that can run great distances (10, 20 miles is not uncommon) at a hard run. This has little to do with conformation, as a dog not only has to be built for it (take a look at bear dogs -- a number of breeds, same build which does not look like a show bred Airedale), but has to have incredible desire; feet that will hold up to the pounding over rough ground; a very efficient run to conserve energy; lungs that not only have the capacity, but also are efficient at absorbing oxygen and discarding carbon dioxide; a strong heart, arteries, veins, and high number of red blood cells to get that oxygen to the muscles, and the carbon dioxide and lactic acid out; the right balance of slow twitch and fast twitch muscle - not too much and not too little. How do you judge all of the factors that make up endurance in the showring?

-- Speed: The dog has got to be able to overtake a running bear. If the bear keeps putting more and more distance between it and the dogs, the track gets harder and harder to follow, and then is lost. A track greyhound will make an AKC greyhound look ridiculous in any contest of sprinting speed, yet the AKC greyhound is bred for speed, albeit through conformation.

-- Fighting Ability: The dog once it overtakes the bear, it needs to convince the bear to tree, and if the bear won't tree, then to stop the bear (bring to bay) without getting killed. This is very difficult with a wise old bear that knows the game. What does conformation in a showring tell you about fighting ability?

I've only met a few dozen bear hunters, but none had an Airedale, nor had a good thing to say about modern Airedales, although some could remember some "good uns" back in their granpappy's day. Much of the same attributes apply to other game. One thing not mentioned was eyesight. This is critical for squirrel hunting and marking birds not well hit, that might not fall for 200 yards or more away. How do you know if a dog is near sighted or far sighted in the showring? Unless the dog is nearly blind, you wouldn't.

As I mentioned before the Jagd Terrier is increasing in popularity here in the US due to its hunting ability. Not much call for den terriers here, and a bit more size is handy in rough terrain. So, here in the US, many lines of Jagds have increased from the 12 to 18lb den terrier size (and that is large for most working den terriers) to 20 to 30 lbs. Some lines are over 30 lbs and getting close to 40 lbs. Although there are many traits that set them apart, there are many more that they share in common with the hunting Airedale of a hundred years ago. As they are bred up to larger and larger sizes, there is less and less need for a hunting Airedale. There are also a few large gritty cur breeds that are also filling hunting jobs that would have had an Airedale instead. I think there is a real danger of the Airedale disappearing completely from the working/hunting ranks, and the name surviving as a caricature in the showring only, as almost all of the den terriers have become unless the ball gets rolling on breeding the Airedale for performance by actually testing for performance.

We need to get as many show people out in the field as possible, not to embarrass or make fun of them, but to SHOW them what we are talking about, and so that it is obvious to them. I don't think all of the talking in the world is going to convince them, especially those that think a dog that chases song birds is "birdy" in the hunting sense of the word.

- Pete.