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Post by hicntry on Mar 14, 2006 21:33:17 GMT -5
Well, nobody seems to want to field the question of "When is a dog not an airedale conformation wise or ability wise?" Now, being a bit of a realist, I am going to take my best shot. Everything will never be perfect by everyones assessments. There are close to perfect people, cars and everything else. There is also way less than perfect in most things and everything in between. Conformation people strive for the best conformation. Working people strive for the best workers. The two venues both have their goals and neither are really wrong. It is also obvious that a top working dog will very, very seldom be a conformation champion. The reverse holds true for the conformation dog. You just can't breed for the two separate goals. It won't work. One goal will always be given precedence over the other and the outcome will be an average dog at best. I think it is going to have to be the realization, by both sides, that both goals greatly benefit the breed as a whole. The prejudice towards each other benefits no one. I may suggest, since the ATCA is the guardian of the breed, that is where the starting point should be. As the guardian of the breed, the ATCA should recognize the importance of both factions. Without the "true" working airedales, you have nothing but showdogs. Without the conformation dogs, you have absolutely no recognizable standard. I would say, If the ATCA is truly a guardian of this unparalleled breed. There should be a few concessions on their side, in the writing of many of their ideals of the breed and the goals to be strived for. Being realistic, there is no threat that I am aware of, of any hunter I know of wanting to enter a dog in the show ring. By the same token there are just as few conformation people that will go into the field and chase game or do protection work. It is going to take both to really benefit the breed. It is a matter of the breeds guardian, the ATCA, to realize that a good relationship between the two sides is what will benefit the breed. Don
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Post by Maverick on Mar 15, 2006 2:33:36 GMT -5
You didn't have to double post to get my attention! But, you do have me fired up! ;D Don said his board was interested in a discussion of Airedales not making the best boar hunting dog which by that description would be a specialist and not an Airedale at all. You got that right! "You want a versatile H/W dog? 1) Decide on the job description. OK, what breed is it? This is a worthy cause for hunters but I don't see how this method would improve the Airedale. If it is based on the job alone there would not be any breed characteristics, how would you recognize it. As I versatile dog let's describe it as a dog capable of hunting all the vermin it was originally bred to do in England in the late 1800's. What characteristics would it need?The big difference between Airedales and other versatile hunting dogs is temperament and the superior fighting ability. Airedales also have that elusive Airedale personality! The coat of the modern Airedale is a pain to maintain, and no where near the useful coat they originated with. Look to the *working* den terriers with double coats, that is the coat that protects the animal without grooming.
You ask what breed is it? I ask what is a breed? It is just a collection of desirable mutations to a species, in this case the species Canis familiaris now known as Canis lupus familiaris. The concept of breed has only been around for about 150 years or so. Originally, there were only domesticated dogs (wolves actually) that earned their keep. Ones that weren't useful were killed or driven off. That selection process changed them. As people migrated to different environments, their "dogs" had to adapt also. As people went from hunter gatherers to herding, their "dogs" had to adapt also. Same for farming. People tended to stay put once they became farmers, and "dogs" became localized. People soon discovered the art of breeding, improving their domesticated animals, including dogs, to suit their uses more closely. As leisure time increased, so did their appreciation of aesthetics. Soon animals were bred not just for usefulness, but also to be pleasing to the eye. It is only in the most modern times that breeding for usefulness has declined to the point that all that matters is how "pleasing to the eye" a dog is. Of course humans with their great diversity had different concepts of what canine beauty was, and all manner of *useless* breeds were developed. And humans like to be special, so special clubs were formed to socialize with like minded people, keep the riff-raff out, and feel good about being elite. And among stratification of people into classes from the vulgar to the elite, the kennel clubs were born to propagate the stratification of the domesticated animals so that the elite could own elite animals and leave the common animals to the masses. As a person's status has become less about their deeds and more about politics, so has dog breeding become less about function and more about aesthetics and politics. Why else would people spend large amounts of time and money to own and promote essentially useless animals? Our animal shelters are overflowing with equally useless animals that mostly have better genetic health and would do as well as a companion as any "pure bred" dog. Don't forget, no matter what you have, from a pound pup to a winner at Westminster, it is still just a mutated member of the Canis lupus familiaris species! What is the difference between show champions and pound dogs for people not breeding dogs? Both come in a wide variety of shapes, sizes, and temperaments. Some make good companions for some people and not other people. Some are smart, some are not. Some require grooming and some do not. Some are sweet and some are not. Oh yeah, I know, a whole lot of money, that's the difference! And, if you want to be a part of that elite club that your dog comes from, you'll end up spending a whole bunch of time showing and a whole bunch more money in preparing a dog to be shown, traveling to shows, and entry fees! Why would anyone spend that time and money? How does it benefit the dog? The owner? Ah, membership to an elite club. You say to promote excellence in the breed? What sort of excellence? All I can think of is a certain look. And what makes that look better than a look that can be found at the pound? Truth is that most people would be happy with some range of dog temperaments and looks, so why not a cull from a breeding program useful dogs?
What it really comes down to is breeding. Even most show breeders tout what their breed's ancient ancestors used to DO before they were "improved". Don't you think that there are enough breeders striving to produce useful, healthy, sound tempered dogs for some particular or variety of uses, to satisfy the need for pet quality or companion dogs with their culls? Hunting and working dogs come in all sizes, temperaments, and personalities to fit anyone's life style and needs.
If you are going to breed for a look, don't pretend that look has anything more than a tenuous link to any function. Unfortunately, when looks become paramount to all breeding qualities, genetic health gets second billing. The cost of keeping a dog healthy is going up every year because there are more and more aliments that require veterinary attention. The problems seen in most show breeds are rare or nonexistent in working or hunting dogs that are worked or hunted hard. All systems must be functioning well for these dogs, and any weak link is quickly spotted and eliminated from the genetic pool. Since show people have a large investment in their dog, and the only way to recoup that investment is through breeding, most of these aliments are covered up and never spoken of, if at all possible. The consequences are huge monetarily, not to mention the hit one's pride takes in their supreme breeding program and champion dogs. Sure there are show people with ethics that would never perpetuate genetic weaknesses in their future breeding, but few of them would advertise the problem, so that all that had dogs with ancestors containing the bloodlines involved could make adjustments. But, with huge amounts of money and pride on the line, and possibly their whole breeding program on the line, few breeders breeders would take the high road. With the decline of moral fiber in general, the vast majority will put their own interests ahead of that of the breed. I'm not saying that hunting and working dog people are of a higher moral character, but it is much, much harder to hide any genetic weakness or infirmness when the dog is stressing all of his systems to the maximum to compete. It only takes one weak link in their genetic makeup to cause them to fail. A show dog prancing around on the end of a leash in a showring comes nowhere near stressing his abilities (one would hope -- I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here).
I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but look at the top competitors in competition. Jet fighters are not designed for beauty, but there is still a general agreement about the beauty in their lines and shape. Or how about deer? They are designed to survive, not win beauty pageants, yet they are generally considered beautiful. Michael Jordan is focused on putting a ball through a hoop, yet the moves he makes in getting the ball there are considered as beautiful as ballet moves by many. Or, a greyhound in full flight down a track.
Is a racing greyhound ever graded on color, coat type, head shape, leg angulation, or any confirmation ideal? No, of course not! Sprint speed is all that counts. Is it hard to identify a racing greyhound because there is no conformation standard? No? Why is that? Could it be that form follows function? What if only the top 5% of versatile Airedales nationally tested/competed were widely bred each generation, what do you think would happen to their conformation?2) Develop the dogs to the best of their abilities through training and/or experience to fit that description. "OK"3) Compare the dogs that do the best at filling that job description. "OK, your test should include a test for fur and feather, land and water retrieving, protection, tracking, what else?"Anything there was significant interest in. I am looking for brains and a desire to aid in whatever activity its owner is involved in. For breeding purposes, I am not interested in testing the owner's training ability, so I would want the test designed to test the dogs thinking ability and teamwork. There are many activities that would be fun for the owner and dog to participate in, whether it is just for fun, being tested, or competition. These are great to get owners working with their dogs, and enhancing the quality of life for the dog. I believe that trying to "hardwire" a dog for a variety of tasks is doomed to failure as you would just be chasing your tail trying to shore-up the deficiencies in varying tasks with each generation. To simplify the breeding program, I would breed for 4 things: raw native intelligence, teamwork with owner/handler, a balanced high performance athletic body, and being an Airedale, that terrier personality (fire, grit, never-say-die attitude). The initial tests should be easy and safe enough for any Airedale owner to get started, but I would like to see additional levels added to test a REAL AIREDALE!
Making retrieving on land and water very difficult where the dog is taxed physically and mentally could test intelligence and athletic ability. We are not testing Labradors here, so forget blind retrieves and most of the obedience stuff, add obstacle course elements -- make the dog work hard physically and mentally. The dogs should avoid running through other blinds, swimming through decoy layouts, or killing Labs along the way, but otherwise should be on his own to work out some retrieves the Labs would give up on or shy away from. The top Airedales should be able to retrieve a strong running pheasant with a wing clipped in heavy thorny cover to hand unharmed after a simulated flush and winging of the bird; and retrieve a strong swimming and diving wing clipped duck from a large pond or lake, showing that it can follow the scent trail on the surface of the water, bonus points for diving after the duck and catching it under water, and retrieving duck to hand unharmed. A retrieve across a fast flowing river, and out of a nasty thorny thicket would be nice too.
Baying a boar would test agility, reflexes, grit, and some intelligence. A pair (maybe 3) of Airedales should be able to bay a boar in place and not let him move in a circular corral. The boar should try with determination to move at least occasionally. The job of the Airedales is to provide just enough pressure to change his mind. The boar should be chosen for a nasty attitude and fighting ability. This would of course not be a test for beginners, or the faint of heart.
Herding can test would test agility, intelligence, teamwork, and some endurance. Once again, we are not testing Border Collies, these are Airedales! So no sheep! They should be able to drive feral cows and/or pigs, or gather them up out of heavy brush -- you want some really ornery critters here, it would be nice to compete with those BMC people. For true versatility, a little duck herding in addition would be nice though -- big deductions for duck deaths and injuries though!
Tracking tests should emphasize complexity and difficulty, not aging or length. The protection people may want a well aged or long track, I don't know. But Airedales are not hounds, and should have a fairly "hot" nose. In the old days Airedales were known for there ability to work out back tracks and looping and crossing of tracks better than hounds, and also to run the track faster once it heated up. I think those are virtues to strive for.
Using live animals for retrieving might be an issue in some states, and only to be used in the upper levels where you are pretty sure that the animal will be retrieved unharmed to hand. The beginning level(s) would only use dead animals, with points deducted for eating an animal on the return. ;D
Don't know much about protection, but I would think the assailant/helper should NEED full body armor! 4) Breed the best to the best, trying to offset weak areas on one side to strong areas on the other. "How do you determine the best? Points for each activity and the one with the most points is best or the best being the one that can do all the above activities while some can only do a few?"Sounds good! Minimum point levels too. Maybe some subclasses of versatility for those that don't want or can't compete in all areas.Then review step #1 for any fine tuning, and repeat steps #2 thru #4. When most dogs are meeting the job description and are performing in the same league, then worry about beauty pageants! "Whoa, we started with an Airedale, are you now saying it doesn't matter what it looks like as long as it gets the job done? If that's the case why start with an Airedale?The only versatile dog I know of that is similar to the Airedale in function is the Black Mouth Cur. But it lacks the Airedale personality and it has a slick light colored coat optimized for heat. Refer back to my previous comment also. Once the top 5% account for most of the breeding, the look of the Airedale will start to solidify. As I stated before, once you are producing many top performers, then you can start developing a "look", as long as it doesn't affect performance! Better yet, just describe those fine looking top performing Airedales as they will be the epitome of what a hard gritty versatile dog should look like! I think this is a different perspective from those who choose to hunt, do shuntzhund, tracking, obedience, etc. with Airedales. They have first chosen an Airedale and second want the best Airedale for their activity however if they want a specialist then by definition it is not an Airedale. If they wanted the best dog for some activities it wouldn't be an Airedale.??Bottom line: If you breed for exceptional intelligence, a burning desire to please you as leader of the pack, This is certainly NOT a terrier trait!! Sounds to me like breeding out one of the main Airedale traits, independence. Goldens have been bred forever to want to serve man is that the attitude you want?Yeah right! Put a Golden in front of a boar and let's see what happens! They lack grit, athleticism, speed, endurance, drive, and I think intelligence too! Plus, Airedales are not true terriers and never have been! As far as independence goes, if the dog is truly independent you are going to spend all of your time hunting the dog and not game. Take a pride of lions for example. Do you see any namby-pamby Golden personalities there? Of course not! They are mean SOBs and they work together with military precision to take down prey up to cape buffalo. I guess African lions are gold colored, so if your "Goldens" are African Lions, you are dead on! ;D ;Dand an all around exceptional athletic body with an all environment coat, you will get a versatile dog that is helpful in any situation. Since we are Airedale people, you will need to season that mix with terrier fire and grit. Since we are Airedale people shouldn't we start with what an Airedale looks like and how one can identify it?" Form follows function! Let's start with performance and push it to the limit! Some (I think most!) of those incredible top performing Airedales are going to look great to any Airedale owner, and to any other person that appreciates an outstanding performance H/W dog! Worrying about how an Airedale should look before creating an Airedale that can do the job, is like "putting the cart before the horse". Racing Greyhounds are a great example. There is no standard, no "look" dictated by some elite club, the only thing is sprint speed! Nothing else matters. Does anyone have trouble identifying a racing Greyhound?Any breed can be bred over time to excel at different activities,[Now you got me rolling on the floor laughing, and wetting my pants! You breed an English Bulldog to run down a coyote, while maintaining the English Bulldog standard, and I will sign over my house, car, and everything else I own to you! Or, how about a Pekingese as a protection dog?]times change, people change, countries change but the one thing that allows people to identify an Airedale is how it looks.[Go back a hundred years and compare the Airedale to the current crop. Dog standards change, maybe not yearly, but they do change at the whimsy of the people in charge of the breed club. Now, that is something you can count on!]It would be a lot more challenging to breed for better performance while maintaining a "standard" appearance. [You are right on the money here, it is far more challenging! Like fitting a square peg in a round hole -- lots of challenge there too!]In order to do that though you must have your first concern be the Airedale.[Right on the money again!!! Let's not worry about fashion, and let's work on performance, health, and well being of the Airedale as a (the?!!) top versatile H/W dog!!! 1) Decide on the job description.
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Post by Maverick on Mar 15, 2006 2:44:25 GMT -5
Hi all. Gald to be reading all the responses here. " Why isn't there a venue for tracking dogs, or scent detection dogs, or victim recovery dogs, or protection dogs within the H/W? " I feel it's due to so much time and direction being spent on showing, and so many people being so wrapped up in showing that there isn't the desire to spread out the "fun". How about the title of Grand Master Versatile Airedale, with subtitles of Master Versatile Hunting Airedale and Master Versatile Working Airedale for those not wanting to work their dog or not hunt their dog. Further sub-subtitling could occur, but only if the number of potential participants warrant it.
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Post by Maverick on Mar 15, 2006 4:01:18 GMT -5
How do you know an Airedale when you see one? First, why does it matter? Second, I can tell you the "breed" and strain of most working den terriers that have no conformation breed standard, but are only bred for a particular job/quarry and style of working. Like racing greyhounds, when only the best will do, they start looking alike and acting alike because their gene pool has become very concentrated after a few generations. This may be hard to understand by people that need to have a multitude of very precise rules to know what is "right", but breeding for top performance for a given job has this effect, whether you intend it or not. If you limit your "testing" and breeding to a particular region, you will develop an identifiable set of traits that sets you off from the base stock, but optimizes for that particular regions conditions or desired style of working. That regionalization is how all of the terrier breeds began, not because of any standard. It wouldn't have mattered at that time anyway because most common folk that kept terriers back then were illiterate, and conformation shows did not exist then. Even today, there are new breeds of scent hounds being developed for tracking coyotes back east that are distinct and easily identifiable to a houndsman by sight alone. They do not have a breed standard, and no one cares what they look like as long as they can track and catch coyotes, yet they are identifiable due to the concentration of the genetic pool by breeding only the best. The July hound comes to mind as an example. In working (den) terriers, there is a breed called the Patterdale. Anyone working (den) terriers can easily identify them, yet there is no breeding standard, only a working standard. And even within their small numbers, there are Nuttall, Gould, Mason, and Park strains, all easily identifiable as Patterdales by any serious working terrier man, and the different strains identifiable by workers of "hard" terriers. None of these terriers are bred for a "look" or some preconceived notion of what a proper one should look like, act like, or be built like. They have become "typey" because of intense breeding for a particular job. What they look like is incidental, but identifiable!
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Post by texairedale on Mar 15, 2006 13:36:48 GMT -5
There has been mention of a lack of performance venues put on by the ATCA and a hint that the existing H/w events are inadequate. Volunteer organizations require volunteers. Those that volunteer and do the work, pick the tunes. Don't expect others to carry the luggage for your event, anymore than you would do so for them. That being said, most hardcore Airedalers, show or otherwise, love the breed's versatility and exhibitions of those traits in all forms. If you want performance events for Airedales, get involved, and do the work to put them on! If you find the H/W group within the ATCA not suitable, get involved and try to modify things or find another umbrella breed organization. The LoneStar ATC has long had a "versatility event" that amounts to various demos. IF individuals want to build it to more than that........ and were willing to do the work, organizing, setting venues, fundraising, advertising, etc, etc...... they would be welcome!!! Performance people need to get involved, the breed needs you! But don't expect others to carry your luggage for you. Dave Post
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Post by texairedale on Mar 15, 2006 15:18:01 GMT -5
Dave M. and Don have been having an interesting discussion of size and selection. I firmly believe you get what you select for and you don't keep what you don't select for..... for example, working ability. But we all have blind spots with regard to our own, that is where competition comes in...... put up or shut up. <G> Competition also keeps the breed together, an important issue for those of us that realize that preserving Airedales as a breed is a group project, not a bunch of islands doing our own thing. Don believes that bigger dogs hunt better. This contradicts some other information. Plott Hounds (bear/boar performance dogs) tend to run 45 to 70 lbs, redbones 45 to 65lbs. Bigger hounds (black and tans, old style blue ticks) tend to be cold nosed, big eared dogs, but fairly slow workers. Here in east Texas, the most common hog dogs are pitX hound crosses and again tend to be in the 60 lb range. This all contradicts Don's experience. This is where competitions and "shows" come in. Everyone gets to see the same things and a concensus develops as to what is "correct". The concensus can be led astray by outstanding individual dogs that are outside the norm and this can lead to breeding fads, but those fads tend to prove themselves false over time. Again, performance people need to get involved at event creation and support (ie running, financing, advertising, etc) . My concern is that there are not enough performance oriented breeders to support such events. Ultimately, it is active breeders that drive the breed.
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Post by hicntry on Mar 15, 2006 16:54:43 GMT -5
Dave, I have to correct your post. I said there are good dogs of all sizes, I didn't say big airedales are better hunters. I stress running ability as in the overall covering of ground which is not the same as quick. I said after many generation of selective breeding for speed, this is what my dog turned into conformation wise. Size has nothing to do with hunting ability. I have a 12 year old that is 90 lbs. He could out sprint all the smaller dogs, but, after the first mile in this terrain, he had to work out of the back of the truck as a strike dog while the 70lb dogs finished the day on the ground. My ideal dogs are 70 to 75lbs. I normally don't keep dogs over 80lbs. Geronimo is the only one to reach 85lbs that was built to make a day out of a hunt. As has been mentioned numerous times here also, it may be the extremely rough terrain that decided the size of the fastest over time. To hunt running game, the dog has to be able to make the strokes to stay in the race. One of my friends runs English red ticks and English blue ticks. He has 40 to 70lbers. The big dogs are the leaders in the 10 mile bear races, the smaller ones do great on the bobcat and fox. One thing non hunters have to learn, is that the hunters don't decide the big or little dog are best overall or anything else about the conformation. The game and the environment being worked will decide that. Only a stupid hunter will buy a dog born raised and hunted in the northern states if he is going to be hunting in AZ or NM. The standards do no work in "real" working dogs.....especially when a panel of conformation breeders have sat down and said, this "looks better than that" and so this is the standard. Take a look at this Dave, This is some of the country I hunt dogs in. They go for miles and you have no idea where they are. How many people do you know in the ATCA, would come and turn there dogs out even if a hunt were arranged. Will the conformation type dogs go and track the game down in the wilderness? Can they find their way home from 5 miles away in this kind of country? Would they even know what they are looking for? Will the conformation dog survive for a few days if he does get lost? I would be more than glad to test my dogs against any in the ATCA conformation circuit. How about an easy test....no times, no obedience, the winner will be judged by who bays up the most hogs or trees the most bears. That is an easy test, straight forward, a simple hunting test. Not one ATCA conformation breeder would try this test. Why, because they really don't know what a serious working dog is. Dave, all the training in the world will not make up for a dog with outstanding natural instincts "bred in". That doesn't come from the conformation ring. That is why all tests have to do with training. That is also why so many objected to having "natural ability" testing on very young pups in the ACTA. I have lost 6 mo old pups out here for 2 days and two nights. I have lost older dogs on numerous occasions. The older dogs I go home and get a good nights sleep. The coyotes had me worried some with the 6 mo old but he did finally show up where he was turned out.
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Post by hicntry on Mar 15, 2006 17:19:25 GMT -5
Dave gave me an idea. I do have access to 6,000 acres where a test can be done. Very rough country. Dogs hunt in pairs of two. If it done in warmer months I recommend you bring whatever for snakebite if you don't think your dog can handle it. Out of all of mine that have been bit, they all did fine with some antihistamine and a few days of penicillin. What isn't steep and rocky is covered with thick brush. The team with the most game on the table in a specified time is the winner. It is up the the owner of the dogs to get his game out to be counted regardless of where it is killed. He can enlist friends to help This is a straight up hunting contest to test the dogs metal and natural abilities. It is open to all ATCA members wanting to see if their dog is up to the breed standard on the inside. Who knows, this might be your dog. Actually it is Hunter getting ready to put the breaks on the hog....But it could be anybodies dog that wants to test them.
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Post by Maverick on Mar 15, 2006 17:34:52 GMT -5
Texairedale - You have some good input there! I totally agree that the best size is the size that works the best. Don's size difference may because of the rough country he hunts in, steep ravines, boulders, deadfalls, etc. Quite a lot different than you flat Texas country! I know from my research on sighthounds in the last year, that the smaller ones, approx. 60 lbs, do better on the flat open country with sparse vegetation. When the ground gets rough or the vegetation gets more than a few inches high, then the larger taller dogs start taking the lead.
Performance Airedale people seem to be few and far between. I think having open breed events, at least initially would be helpful in getting participation up. There is the danger of making the Airedale look bad against similarly capable breeds (BMCs, catahoulas, etc.). But, Airedales are sufficiently unique that some people will prefer them just because they are Airedales. And, I really think there are still all the genes necessary to bring the Airedale back as the top versatile H/W dog scattered around the country, and all that is necessary is just an intesive breeding program centered around performance to bring them all together to produce the legendary dog that "could do anything any other dog could do, and lick the other dog if it had to". - Pete
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Post by Sidney on Mar 15, 2006 18:15:04 GMT -5
Dave gave me an idea. I do have access to 6,000 acres where a test can be done. Very rough country. Dogs hunt in pairs of two. If it done in warmer months I recommend you bring whatever for snakebite if you don't think your dog can handle it. Out of all of mine that have been bit, they all did fine with some antihistamine and a few days of penicillin. What isn't steep and rocky is covered with thick brush. The team with the most game on the table in a specified time is the winner. It is up the the owner of the dogs to get his game out to be counted regardless of where it is killed. He can enlist friends to help This is a straight up hunting contest to test the dogs metal and natural abilities. It is open to all ATCA members wanting to see if their dog is up to the breed standard on the inside. Who knows, this might be your dog. Actually it is Hunter getting ready to put the breaks on the hog....But it could be anybodies dog that wants to test them. Don, to make it a fair test, I think you need to have some of the littermates of your hunting dogs who have been raised as house pets come and participate. Is it the breeding, or is it the way the dogs are raised and trained? Sidney
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Post by Suzanne on Mar 15, 2006 18:31:11 GMT -5
I appreciate the ideas expressed, I wish there were more. Some posts seem to suggest that the Airedale is not already a breed (Webster: "A group, or stock of animals or plants descended from common ancestors and having similar characteristics, especially such a group cultivated by man.") but it is and has been since the 1880's at least. Airedales have been showing in dogs shows since the 1860's in England. I have some information that many may find interesting and I hope will inspire more people to respond. I also have a copy of the AKC/ATCA/CATC Airedale standard from 1910. As I mentioned earlier it has changed very little. The only thing I see of any significance is that in 1910 Airedale size was "40 -45 lbs. bitches slightly less". It actually said "All judges who shall henceforth adjudicate upon the merits of Airedale Terriers shall consider undersized specimensof the breed severely handicapped when competing with dogs of the standard weight". Airedales have been getting larger since their inception. Those of you who have mentioned that the Airedale is not a terrier should remember it started at around 30 - 35 lbs. , of course an 80 lb dog doesn't look as terrier like but in attitude they are every bit a terrier. For those of you that don't believe in standards or evaluating dogs against a standard to determine quality I don't have any desire to change your perspective. Those of you that believe you can only determine quality by matching dogs in similar venues let's here from you. Those of you that want more venues to compete with your Airedale please reread Dave Posts e-mail - he is right on. ATCA is a volunteer organization, who among you out there is organizing? CATC is also a volunteer organization. CATC has had obedience for a number of years but I spearheaded the first Independent All Airedale Obedience Trial in 2004, this April will be our third year and we have added Rally. We are trying to plan on offering Agility at our 100 year anniversary in 2009. These things don't happen because people write e-mails complaining about "show people", they get out there and DO something. If there is someone out there that would like to add something in Northern CA let me hear from you. The pictures you can see at this site are all pre 1935, the Airedale is very recognizable. www.airedale.dk/photoalb.html For those that think they know Airedales and AKC stock you will find some history you don't know here (Courtesy H/W). hwc.airedale.org/Section_2.pdfBooks and other Airedale information: hwc.airedale.org/Bibliography.pdfOh yes, I agree with Sidney, I think Don should hunt a dog of his that left home by 8 weeks of age. Under that situation I bet we could find a competitor!
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Post by hicntry on Mar 15, 2006 18:32:34 GMT -5
Hello Sidney, This is more fair than me doing birds at the HW test. Training is imperative there. This is largely, but not altogether, about natural ability. If they smell a track, do they want it bad enough to go find the animal which may be a long ways away. Actually hunting is the best test as to what a dog is about whether it is birds, bears or hogs. That is where you see the trailing dog at his best, the hunting dog at its best. You have made a good point for me also Sidney, this type of hunting, dogs learn by doing. If you hunt a lot, the dog is going to be good. This is on the job training but there is no other way to do it, so the dog has to have all the ability, not a trainer. Hunter was with two somewhat, novices on this hunt.
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Post by Sidney on Mar 15, 2006 18:49:30 GMT -5
Hello Sidney, This is more fair than me doing birds at the HW test. Training is imperative there. This is largely, but not altogether, about natural ability. If they smell a track, do they want it bad enough to go find the animal which may be a long ways away. Actually hunting is the best test as to what a dog is about whether it is birds, bears or hogs. That is where you see the trailing dog at his best, the hunting dog at its best. You have made a good point for me also Sidney, this type of hunting, dogs learn by doing. If you hunt a lot, the dog is going to be good. This is on the job training but there is no other way to do it, so the dog has to have all the ability, not a trainer. Hunter was with two somewhat, novices on this hunt. I'm sorry, I thought the argument was conformation-bred dogs vs. hunting-bred dogs, not bird hunting-trained dogs vs. boar-hunting trained dogs. Don't those H&W venues have junior tests where a juvenile conformation-bred Airedale and a juvenile hunting-bred Airedale could be tested side by side for natural ability? Leave the trained dogs at home.
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Post by hicntry on Mar 15, 2006 19:05:28 GMT -5
Ladies, ladies, remember this " Genetics only determines what a dog can be, the environment determines what it will be" Question.... What has fair got to do with good dogs..... Actually, if everyone says their dog can do what a working dog can do, this is one of the dogs they should test against. This is where the bar is set. The point I am making through the last couple of post is that first off, I don't think you can find a person that will turn their dogs loose in the wild, secondly, turn their dogs loose in the wild with poisonous snakes, and animals that will eat them if they run the other way. There is a lot of talk about testing, forget testing, Have a get together and have an upland hunt or a duck hunt. Top dog wins. All these trumped up tests are just that. The only way to really test my personal dogs is to have a real hunt. These are titles and anyone that says their dog can hunt fur that has never done it is welcome to have a learning experience and get a title of their own. I am serious. This is an opportunity to see what their dogs are made of. This won't even be a contest really because anyone that gets a hog can have it mounted to have proof that his dog is an airedale all the way through. How about if I don't compete. This may be a little risky but, since these dogs are new to the game, I will put one of my dogs with one of theirs to teach them. That is the way I start my young dogs. It doesn't even have to be competative, just a fun learning experience. What do you think?
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Post by ed on Mar 15, 2006 20:04:04 GMT -5
I really think there are still all the genes necessary to bring the Airedale back as the top versatile H/W dog scattered around the country, and all that is necessary is just an intesive breeding program centered around performance to bring them all together to produce the legendary dog that "could do anything any other dog could do, and lick the other dog if it had to". - Pete Amen Pete
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