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Post by hicntry on Mar 12, 2015 21:11:25 GMT -5
Got a breeding scheduled for Tuco Sunday out of Southern Cal. The offspring will be 5/8 HC and 3/8 East German and. Did the same cross before with a different female and I was impressed with the pups when Mike brought them down from Id.
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Post by hicntry on Mar 17, 2015 14:13:23 GMT -5
It is a done deal. Lucy was bred Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday and is on her way back to Southern Ca. Guess we will know how it went in a couple of months.
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sam
Hunter/worker
Posts: 96
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Post by sam on Mar 19, 2015 9:51:01 GMT -5
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Post by hicntry on Mar 20, 2015 13:14:09 GMT -5
Looking good Sam. I have personally raised a number of litters that were 1/2 HC and 1/2 E. German and 1 litter that was 3/4 HC and 1/4 E. German and all were strong dogs. My Tuco is 3/4 HC and is much more strong willed than any of the 1/2x 1/2 pups. Cash is Tuco's sire and is a 1/2x1/2 and the difference in handling is night and day. Tuco has been a battle of wills where Cash was much more willing. Personally, I like the dogs that are strong enough to challenge me and is the reason I kept him. This will be the third litter of 5/8 HC x 3/8 E. German, but, I haven't had the pleasue of raising any of these litters. I did see all the pups in one of them at 8 weeks and they were really strong dogs. I suspect that, overall, these 5/8 x 3/8 litters may well show the best balance in handling and strengths......unfortunately I won't have the pleasure of raising any personally.
Don
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sam
Hunter/worker
Posts: 96
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Post by sam on Mar 20, 2015 17:09:22 GMT -5
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Post by hicntry on Mar 20, 2015 21:19:11 GMT -5
Nice! Very nice Sam! I love the videos of the pups also because it is a perfect example of how to bring them along with the strongest leading the rest and building their confidence with no stress. Even the last pup on the obstacle course(that you moved the milk carton for) had it's tail straight up which tells me there is no stress. That is how pups should be brought along at this age. Love it.
Thanks for posting it. Also the 50/50 pup is really impressive and the 50/50 pups are fully capable of serious work. Lucy, the dog that took 1st in the comp in TX was a 50/50 pup. The 3/4 x 1/4 pups, like Tuco, would definitely need a trainer of your caliber. The 5/8 x 3/8 may be a dynamite compromise, but, I will never know unless someone gets one of these pups that is willing to seriously work it.
Don
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sam
Hunter/worker
Posts: 96
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Post by sam on Mar 21, 2015 19:54:43 GMT -5
Letting the pups "find their way" on their own and overcome those things which they face will build the pup quickly and give it balance.... As we talked before Don, you know I use no food, toy, or reward as such to bring the pups thru these exercises.... The strength of the pups desire to be with me is enough..... The last pup and the milk carton was just enough to cause it to "think" about what was going on, even though he "stalled", he did not retreat and he came thru "with a little help from his friends".... you can't ask for anything better... The 50/50 female doing protection work will be breed with the brother to the dogs you and I got from Stew, next time around.. ... that will be full german to half german, half hunting..in this case it will be an uncle to a niece... I am looking forward to that breeding when it occurs. The hunting lines are definitely bringing something to the table in serious protection work... I hope to continue and develop further... Always good to read you comments Don... thanks for your interaction and comments...
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Post by hicntry on Mar 22, 2015 13:00:09 GMT -5
I have a question for both Ed and Sam. You both know how I used my dogs in the field. I relyed heavily on extreme prey drive and dominance to control their environment so getting them to work with me was relatively easy because when hunting, finding the game is pretty self rewarding for this type of dog. Ed has worked the dogs in hunting and bite work. Sam is pretty much straight up protection. My question is......is the bite self rewarding to the dog in protection or sport work or does it depend largely on how civil the dog is? Is there a lot of variation in difficulty in training the civil dog versus the more trainable but willing type dog. I know I have read countless times that civil dogs are not most peoples ideal dog for sport work. Does this have any bearing on have absolute control that is needed for a really civil dog. I had the pleasure of meeting Ed's Brisco, and from what I have read, his present dog is much like Brisco.
Don
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sam
Hunter/worker
Posts: 96
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Post by sam on Mar 22, 2015 20:43:03 GMT -5
Don, first of all let me answer your question with a question.... When your dogs are on a hunt for that wild hog, and they are chasing their "prey", we know what is driving them to engage... But, once they engage, and that hog is turning, fighting, and trying to open your dogs belly with its tusk, is the dog still in "prey" at that time... Or does he view it in a completely different light.... That change happens so quickly that it cannot be registered... Is the dog still in "prey/play" or does it become something else... You used the term "dominance", does dominance require a defensive attitude, an aggressive attitude, a serious frame of mind... according to the present circumstance, the moment situation....
If you will notice in the video of the puppies that I posted, you will notice that much was done to build confidence and stability and it continues. You will notice at the end that the puppy was on the bite sleeve/tiug and on the bite pants... There was resistance, there was difficulty applied and the puppy continued to hold on and bite even while he was being thrown around and encourage to let go... he kept biting, he "enjoys" it.... much of that has to do with inherited genetics,..
I can only speak for myself when I say that when building these dogs to do this type of work, it is a continuing process of building the dog to engage in the bite with confidence.. During that building process we work the dog to bite in the frame of mind that it is a game, and there are things we do to build the dogs "suspicion" which creates a more "serious" frame of mind which I will not discuass on an open board....
That word "civil" is used quite often by many people and different people have a different perspective of what it means and what it is when they see it or think they do..... When we think of the "civil dog versus the more trainable but willing type dog"... we are seeing dogs that approach the work in a different frame of mind.... both are trainable and the outcome will be very effective.... one may approach everything from a serious frame of mind and have no problem engaging, the other may approach it in a "game" frame of mind and be very effective... If the latter finds itself in a situation where it feels that it preceives it as something more then a game, the training process allows the dog to remain in the situation in what ever frame of mind it finds itself and continues to engage or continue in the "fight".... in either case the dog will bite and work within that bitework because it "loves" it.... I would suppose that in its mind, it finds it self rewarding..... as far as i'm concerned, in a real life situation, I want it to do what its been trained to do for whatever reason it wants to.....In either and all situations, whether serious, or a game, "absolute control" is an absolute, all the time.
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sam
Hunter/worker
Posts: 96
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Post by sam on Mar 22, 2015 20:50:44 GMT -5
This is a short video of instilling "control" in the youngest and refreshing the older in control..... A working dog must remain fresh and stable in all situations... This video is showing a "refreshing" session with Sadie an 18 month female Airedale, and an eleven week old puppy learning the "place and stay" exercise.... Sadie is being refreshed in the long stay and only to come "here" when called, even under extreme distraction such as the puppy being a "pest" to her.... and the puppy is staying in "place" even under the strong distraction of Sadie walking right by him when called "here"... you will also notice that Sadie's Long Line is being tugged on to try to cause her to move without the command, she holds just fine... Good Job Sadie, way to go puppy. www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FfAe6AsdrI |
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Post by hicntry on Mar 23, 2015 14:40:54 GMT -5
Don, first of all let me answer your question with a question.... When your dogs are on a hunt for that wild hog, and they are chasing their "prey", we know what is driving them to engage... But, once they engage, and that hog is turning, fighting, and trying to open your dogs belly with its tusk, is the dog still in "prey" at that time... Or does he view it in a completely different light.... That change happens so quickly that it cannot be registered... Is the dog still in "prey/play" or does it become something else... You used the term "dominance", does dominance require a defensive attitude, an aggressive attitude, a serious frame of mind... according to the present circumstance, the moment situation.... Mmmmm. Bear goes up a tree. Why? A totally defensive position. The dogs under the tree are in an offensive position. Same with the hogs. They will do anything to get to a defensible position so they can defend themselves and sustain minimal damage. The dogs start as the aggressors and remain the aggressors through the entire fight. If I could call the dogs off, the hog would be more than happy to call it a day. Possibly hounds have given rise to the belief that the dogs go into a defensive posture when actually engaged....which most will because they are sport dogs and, for the most part, were never intended for the fight of large dangerous game. Possibly the idea of defense and offen,se contantly switching back and forth in an all out confrontation, comes from the use of bite suits in which enables the man to be the aggressor with no fear of injury. The use of a bite suit makes it possible to work a dog either in defense or offense......animals don't have an option. Maybe a lot depends on the nature of the dogs being used in both venues. An example would be two pit dogs that meet head on in the middle of the ring. Neither is in defense......and that is breeding. |
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Post by ed on Mar 23, 2015 19:37:52 GMT -5
Don ,
My Airedale Brisco was a very well rounded stable dog with high prey(hunt) drive and was a very strong dog in IPO(Schutzhund) where the fight is sport.He is now 13 still going strong!
His defense drive(serious) not sport was not obvious until really challenged in a more realistic sport PSA and in this particularly in a car jack scenario he was for real.
Kasbah is a better hunter because she is very driven,very fast,and a real hard mouth,with game.I board her with a fellow who keeps chickens and he gave me a pass on a few days boarding after He heard a rukus one night with his chickens, let Kasbah out and missing chicken problem solved.
That wouldnt have been Brisco's game.
Onthe other hand I think your dogs add something to the mix,particularly with nose and a liitle more layed back attitude.
BTW its not all hunt and defense one her pups is doing great in Agility.will post vid if I can find it. Glad to see some Board activity.
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Post by ed on Mar 23, 2015 19:41:29 GMT -5
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sam
Hunter/worker
Posts: 96
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Post by sam on Mar 23, 2015 21:20:13 GMT -5
Ok, lets take a look at this.... Bear goes up the tree, why? Because he is actively being pursued by aggressive attacking dogs... To go up the tree is a defensive posture... that posture he took was "flight"... There are 2 and only two aspects of defense, "fight, or flight"... The dogs under the tree remained the aggressors, the attackers, they are not being challenged. You can say they are "offensive" because they continue to be the aggressors. As you stated, same with the hogs, they will do anything to get a defensible position.. They will start out in "flight" to escape, (defense).. when the aggressors overtake, the hog changes its posture, it will defend itself to sustain minimal damage... they will "fight", also (defense)... the dogs that pursued the hogs did so as you said in an offensive, aggressive, actively going for the attack... they were in pursuit, they were in, as the term is used in dogdom, pursuing the "prey". Once they engaged the hog, the dog had two options depending on the dog and the hog... which the hog now has turned to "aggresiveness" and entered the "fight"... The dog may have been the aggressor, but now it has the choice, genetics, or training to do one of two things, fight, or go into flight.... Even though it was the aggressor, the dynamics of the situation changed... Throughout my life, I have seen men be aggressive, and when the one they were aggressive toward, brought the fight to the aggressor, the aggressor couldnt see the time to get out of there.... Being the aggressor does not mean they have the innate ability to engage and sustain the fight... once the fight begins, even the aggressor has to go into defense to protect itself and battle to overcome the one he pursued or he will be overtaken... The dynamics change quickly.... and if the aggressor is overtaken, injured, hurt, chances are, it will do one of a few things, fight to the death, try to escape..(flight), or simply submit and accept the outcome.. I have seen time and time again on shows like National Geographic, and Discovery Channel that a predator such as a tiger or lion would pursue its prey... they pick out the weakest and most vulnerable, and time and time again I have seen a mother or such challenge the large cats when they caught the younger prey.... many times I have seen the large cats take off running for its life, obviously, this does depend upon the kind of animal that was pursued...animals do have the option.... there are those that once they are caught by the aggressor, they go limp, whine, and are taken to the dinner table.. there is no defense for those kind of animals other then flight, when that fails, thats it....
Ed mentioned Brisco and being challenged in a more realistic way to bring out a serious side... The dynamics of the relationship between Man and Dog is completely different from the dynamics between animal and animal... The dog will leave its own and draw or bond to the man to defend the man against another animal, even its own kind and against another man...You have seen this time and time again Don... It's a deeper chasm for most dogs to bridge to attack and bite a man with a serious mindset then most people realize... When the dog does it as a play/prey/game, it is just that.... I cant speak for how anyone else does their training... I view the bitesuit as a tool to build the dog and bring out the very best in the dog... and as I stated in the previous post, there are things that can and are done to change the dynamics of what is going on and bring the dog into a more "serious" mindset... when a seriousness is brought forward in the mind of the dog, the approach of the dog coming into the fight takes on a whole different aspect....when you bring that to the dog, the dog is in the fight, defending itself, and aggressively trying to overcome that whom it is fighting....
Enjoying the discussion....
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Post by hicntry on Mar 25, 2015 11:44:36 GMT -5
Ok, lets take a look at this.... Bear goes up the tree, why? Because he is actively being pursued by aggressive attacking dogs... To go up the tree is a defensive posture... that posture he took was "flight"... There are 2 and only two aspects of defense, "fight, or flight"... The dogs under the tree remained the aggressors, the attackers, they are not being challenged. You can say they are "offensive" because they continue to be the aggressors. As you stated, same with the hogs, they will do anything to get a defensible position.. They will start out in "flight" to escape, (defense).. when the aggressors overtake, the hog changes its posture, it will defend itself to sustain minimal damage... they will "fight", also (defense)... the dogs that pursued the hogs did so as you said in an offensive, aggressive, actively going for the attack... they were in pursuit, they were in, as the term is used in dogdom, pursuing the "prey". Once they engaged the hog, the dog had two options depending on the dog and the hog... which the hog now has turned to "aggresiveness" and entered the "fight"... The dog may have been the aggressor, but now it has the choice, genetics, or training to do one of two things, fight, or go into flight.... Even though it was the aggressor, the dynamics of the situation changed... Throughout my life, I have seen men be aggressive, and when the one they were aggressive toward, brought the fight to the aggressor, the aggressor couldnt see the time to get out of there.... Being the aggressor does not mean they have the innate ability to engage and sustain the fight... once the fight begins, even the aggressor has to go into defense to protect itself and battle to overcome the one he pursued or he will be overtaken... The dynamics change quickly.... and if the aggressor is overtaken, injured, hurt, chances are, it will do one of a few things, fight to the death, try to escape..(flight), or simply submit and accept the outcome.. I have seen time and time again on shows like National Geographic, and Discovery Channel that a predator such as a tiger or lion would pursue its prey... they pick out the weakest and most vulnerable, and time and time again I have seen a mother or such challenge the large cats when they caught the younger prey.... many times I have seen the large cats take off running for its life, obviously, this does depend upon the kind of animal that was pursued...animals do have the option.... there are those that once they are caught by the aggressor, they go limp, whine, and are taken to the dinner table.. there is no defense for those kind of animals other then flight, when that fails, thats it.... |
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