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Alphas
Dec 20, 2005 22:21:53 GMT -5
Post by jsf13 on Dec 20, 2005 22:21:53 GMT -5
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Alphas
Dec 20, 2005 22:39:21 GMT -5
Post by Wolfer on Dec 20, 2005 22:39:21 GMT -5
Hmmm sounds alot like what a certain someone has been saying .......I wont say who cause i dont weant to give him a big head....LOL
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Alphas
Dec 20, 2005 22:48:29 GMT -5
Post by hicntry on Dec 20, 2005 22:48:29 GMT -5
Santa Claus tried to tell them.LOL Joe could have saved me a heck mof a lot of time if he would have put this up about 15 years ago. Hunter is one of my favorites but he has always been a pain in the butt because he was rough on other dogs. I have had to keep him in his own private yard. This article was real beneficial in understanding him. I always pegged him as an alpha but he was real hard nosed so I figured he was just not as confident as Higgins and Winchester, yet he didn't fit as a middle dog. Thanks for the article there Joe. I wasn't really aware that the bottom of the heap never squabbled because they were not here that long.LOL
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Alphas
Dec 20, 2005 23:09:07 GMT -5
Post by hicntry on Dec 20, 2005 23:09:07 GMT -5
I see now I have been plagerizing and I stack my dogs into small pens to increase the profit margin. Where do these guys come from??
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Alphas
Dec 21, 2005 0:08:10 GMT -5
Post by Mark Baldassarre on Dec 21, 2005 0:08:10 GMT -5
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Alphas
Dec 21, 2005 0:15:33 GMT -5
Post by Wolfer on Dec 21, 2005 0:15:33 GMT -5
That brings up a good point Mark............ Just what is the advantages of clicker traing........ Im a whistle kinda guy myself or "YOU DUMB SOB GET OVER HERE" kinda guy
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Alphas
Dec 21, 2005 0:40:53 GMT -5
Post by hicntry on Dec 21, 2005 0:40:53 GMT -5
Won't be raining on my parade Mark. Call it what you will. The first part of that 19 yr. study is right on the mark. Now, I know you disagreed with me on this same point before but, that is just the way it goes. Everyone wants to believe their dog is an alpha just like most parents believe their children are gifted. Doesn't make it even close to being true. There are not many true alphas out there. Why, because people don't know what they are looking at and don't understand the alpha mentality. I can tell you this, if you think your dogs are true alphas, they better fit that profile. I found the study interesting because I really didn't realize the lower on the totem pole offered no resistance, but, as I said, they aren't here long. Apparently the article is just feel good bullsh!t because it didn't make you feel better.
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Alphas
Dec 21, 2005 1:55:06 GMT -5
Post by Mark Baldassarre on Dec 21, 2005 1:55:06 GMT -5
Wolfer, I don't have any idea!
Don, I really can't claim to have done any "studies" on the Alpha thing.
I surely have seen pups in litters...too young to "know they would lose" kick other pups asses! This "squabbling" crap they mention is one thing. FIGHTING & liking it...is another.
I'd agree, squabblers are usually the weaker dogs. But to call fighters, squabblers is an intentional interjection of misinformation.
I can say a study conducted under a couple liberal universities is suspect at best. The link to clicker training raises even more suspicion.
It's hard to swallow this theory when you have seen dogs that were constant "squabblers" never back down...even when they were losing a fight. That behaviour is not indicative of a dog who is sub- alpha.
Don't get me wrong, I'm very open to the examination of data. I just need more than one guy's study/opinion to convince me.
Mark
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Alphas
Dec 21, 2005 9:13:14 GMT -5
Post by hicntry on Dec 21, 2005 9:13:14 GMT -5
You have to keep in mind Mark, many of the animals are not going to fit any specific category because they are simply squirrels and are quite off center. In the wild they would have died because of there behavior, as domestic dogs, they are saved to fight again. It is knowing what you are looking at. This is by no means an easy thing to do unless you have numerous dogs to compare to. The intensity of a squabble could well have to do with the breed differences. It would be pushing it to call some of what I have seen squabbles but other than when bitches are in heat, there are surprisingly few disturbances. With a lot of uneutered dogs, that is a given. There is a lot of chest beating when the girls are ready and certain precautions are adviseable.
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Alphas
Dec 21, 2005 15:15:34 GMT -5
Post by jsf13 on Dec 21, 2005 15:15:34 GMT -5
Lol.Mark,not hard to guess which side of the Pavlovian/Skinnerian fence you are on.
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Alphas
Dec 21, 2005 23:50:12 GMT -5
Post by Mark Baldassarre on Dec 21, 2005 23:50:12 GMT -5
Joe, I've never been a big fan or student of the theory side of training. Although I do tend to salivate at times. Oddly, it's never at the sound of a bell. Those guys had WAY too much time on their hands. I wonder if either one of them ever REALLY trained a dog to do anything meaningful. Regardless, you'd probably know better than I, where I'd fall relative to each of their thinking. All I know is...I never saw either one of those punks teach a dog to carry a friggin car tire . Mark
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Alphas
Dec 22, 2005 8:45:21 GMT -5
Post by jsf13 on Dec 22, 2005 8:45:21 GMT -5
Joe, I've never been a big fan or student of the theory side of training. Mark To tell you the truth neither have I.I've studied some of that stuff,but in my experince what works for one dog doesn't necessarily work for another.However my training skills leave a lot to be desired.I'm more of a Koehler kind of a guy myself.That I can understand
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Alphas
Dec 22, 2005 9:12:51 GMT -5
Post by hicntry on Dec 22, 2005 9:12:51 GMT -5
I am not much for taking blankly believing what I read either. But, After years of watching the dogs interact at their social level, I would have no choice but believe the study has merit because they came to much the same conclusions I did which is quite the opposite of what most people think an alpha level dog is. Actually, there is no way for the any person with a dog or two to figure it out the complexities of pack interaction. While training dogs to climb ladders and carry tires intrigues me to a point, but the dog itself is what really fascinates me so I watch them. I find understanding them more beneficial to breeding them than training them.
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Summit Forge
Hunter/worker
Forge with Ruffed Grouse
Posts: 124
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Alphas
Dec 22, 2005 12:11:15 GMT -5
Post by Summit Forge on Dec 22, 2005 12:11:15 GMT -5
... While training dogs to climb ladders and carry tires intrigues me to a point, but the dog itself is what really fascinates me so I watch them. I find understanding them more beneficial to breeding them than training them. Don, What I believe you meant to say is that you find watching your Airedales gives you some understanding of their nature and capabilities that is beneficial to your breeding program. Training Airedales to varying levels of proficiency also provides understanding that would be beneficial to one's breeding program. Only by watching Airedales AND training Airedales is one able to say which approach is MORE beneficial to a breeding program. Or that they are complimentary ...etc. Please correct me, if I'm wrong. Ron
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Alphas
Dec 22, 2005 21:22:57 GMT -5
Post by jsf13 on Dec 22, 2005 21:22:57 GMT -5
I am not much for taking blankly believing what I read either. But, After years of watching the dogs interact at their social level, I would have no choice but believe the study has merit because they came to much the same conclusions I did I wasn't talking about the study Don, but all the different training theories out there. I'm sure everything works for somebody but I'm kind of an old fashioned guy. ;D
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