Visualize Please...

[Mark Baldassarre]

Curt


Under the ATCA Objectives number one is:

"To encourage and promote quality in the breeding of pure-bred Airedale Terriers and to do all possible to bring their natural qualities to perfection"

I wonder what they think these natural qualities are.

Do any of the board members have any involvement with protection work do you know?

Mark

[hicntry]

I am going to make a blind stab at something here. At the birth of this new breed, one of the jobs was protection of the home front. His territory and everything associated with that. It was considered a "natural" trait of the breed. They protected their own when it was in danger. It is somewhat overlapping but not the same as the extensive training that is required to do "protection work" when not acting instinctively to protect his territory and everything associated with that territory. I don't see protection work, as it is today, as the same thing as being "inherently" protective of his people and territory, which was what was expected of a good airedale at the time. I am not saying that he is not suited for it, just that it was not what the dog was bred for originally. Because he can be trained to do it is much different that what would be considered "natural" to the breed.

[Summit Forge]

I can't believe it Don... we agree on something!

Fearless and loyal does not mean Schutzhund to me... not that there is anything wrong with that.

Ron

[jsf13]

I'd pretty much have to agree with that as well.There are some breeds that even though they can be good at personal protection were not originally intended to be used as such.The American Bulldog, APBT and Presa Canario are three others that come to mind.JMO.

[hicntry]

Well, I had to clear that up because I have heard numerous times that protection is part of what the airedale is about. There is a difference in what the dale "was" about and what he is becoming. I don't think there will be any protection minded people on the board at ATCA because their goal is "obviously" to preserve the dog as he was originally intended. Now, if you believe that, I got some show dogs for sale. The parents may be a little big but the pups will be show size...."Trust Me" LOL Couldn't help myself! ;D

[melanie]

summitforge said:

I can't believe it Don... we agree on something!

Fearless and loyal does not mean Schutzhund to me... not that there is anything wrong with that.

Ron

I agree too. I've told several stories of how my Airedales physically protected me or my family - no protection training there, just a keen sense of true danger and a strong desire to protect what's his.

Half their protection quality is their mere presence!

But the part I love about Sch. is when the handler says "Stop or I'll send my dog!" And they don't and he does. I like that! And Airedales look so cool doing it!

I still wonder if Iko will ever get there...



[glow=red,2,300]Mel[/glow]

[Mark Baldassarre]

Guys

Very few breeds were DEVELOPED for PP/Police work. During "that" time period, the Dobe was the only one that I'm aware of specifically developed for "manwork".
In modern times, the Russians developed a couple.
Unlike the Mal, GSD, Bouv... the Airedale went into police service almost immediately after it's development. The aforementioned breeds had been in existence for quite some time.
This in itself says quite a bit about the Airedale's natural abilities in this realm.
The Airedale was the WORLD's first police dog {as we know police dogs today}. Dogs were used prior as article trackers & companions for lonely cops on the beat. BUT, unlike those underlings before him, the Airedale assumed the role as a dog of DEFENSE. Why might that be? Hmmm.
Many breeds existed at the time yet the Airedale was the first to be used. This sounds pretty "natural" to me...and the rest of the world!
To say this kind of work is not natural for the Airedale defies reality. The reality is... THIS is the breed that was chosen for THE job!
What HAS changed is breeding. Indiscriminate, excuse making breeding. That in conjunction with soft people who can't handle hard dogs. Most breeds have been dumbed down,it's a shame.
We are losing them left & right. Political correctness taking a physical form.

Mark

[hicntry]

I will take your word for it that it was the first one"trained" for defense. It is also pretty obvious that the other breeds were better at it because they are still doing it. It's just like hunting birds with dales Mark. Hunting birds is an "inherent" trait of the breed as a whole. Bringing them back is not and has to be trained. Guarding his property and people is "inherent" to the breed, attacking sleeves and such for sport is not natural....but can be "trained". In real life, my dogs sense danger long before I do. It is an innate sense they have that you can't duplicate playing a game.....especially when it is repeated so often. No dog is being fooled by this as an actual dangerous situation. That is why it is figured that most dogs will cave in if they sense it is no longer a game but deadly serious. Yes, they can be trained to do it, some are even good at it. as far as it being natural??I wonder how many wash outs there were back when they started using them for defense? That would tell you how natural it was. I bet even then there were a lot of washouts.

[hicntry]

God that is an ugly dog.

[Mark Baldassarre]

Don,

"I will take your word for it that it was the first one"trained" for defense. It is also pretty obvious that the other breeds were better at it because they are still doing it. It's just like hunting birds with dales Mark"

First I'll start w/ the hunting bird issue. Mine hunts 'em at least as well as the conventional breeds.

Defense issue:
The other breeds were NOT better at defense/police work. It is widely known {by those who know,lol} that the Airedale was the baddest police dog out there. They were said to be unbeatable for the job. This is documented in several places.

Best for best, the others are not better today either. I see this in my pet bred dog as compared to the "real" Mals & GSDs.

Police depts look for the easiest breeds to train. Cops are included with the masses of people who don't know how to train a dog. Airedales are not push button dogs. Civis and cops alike, will take the course of least resistance.

The "best" police dog today is the Mal. Not because it's a Mal, but because of the conscious effort to breed good Mals.
Even so, most Mals coming from the general pool of Mals would wash out in any real situation too. Like any breed,the best ones are still few in number compared to the breed as a whole.
No matter what the breed, the majority will often be unsuitable for work because of lax breeding overall.
Many breeds, then & now had/have large numbers of working prospects in your category of "washouts" as well. The GSD took over and dominated . Now the Mal is bumping him out.
There are Giants, Bouvs, GSD, Rots, etc.,etc. still around in numbers for the job yet the Mal dominates. Why? It has nothing to do with breed suitability. It has to do with handler ability, breeding and favor.
If there were handlers available to handle well bred Airedales, the Airedale would be back at the job. That is as long as they came back into favor!

Also a side note. Dales and Irish terriers were the best bomb,messenger, ambulance & recovery dogs. Neither are used today in any numbers for any kind of search work. WHY? They were obviously the most suited. Not only were they the most suited,but they did their jobs under the most harsh conditions imaginable. Their dominance in those realms can be proven by the numbers of them employed during the World wars.
Funny, I see a lot of Goldens doing SAR work and Beagles doing detection work these days,LOL! Get my point?


Mark

[morgan]

Yes Don, a very ugly dog!

For those of you asking about the qualifications of the ATCA board, a little history:

I'm certainly no fan of the current Board of Directors of the ATCA, but I have served with some of them. Many of you realize that the current administration is in power as a "reaction" to the perception that (among other things) the actual purpose of this club, which was perceived perversely to be breed shows, had been led astray. As to the "schutzhund" qualifications of the ATCA board:

Dale Burrier is a great agitator, unafraid of the sleeve or the fang.
Linda Coates has a UD Airedale and is excellent at tracking and agility.
Bill Westhaus, treasurer has had several titled obedience dogs.
Corally Burmaster (last year) is a well respected behaviorialist and great dog trainer with practical and theoretical credits.
Dorothy Miner (last year) is an AKC tracking judge and had the first VST Airedale (I think).

While I don't intend to endorse actions and decisions that I believe are detrimental to the breed, I think it's unfair to claim a lack of knowledge or experience on everyone's part. We must all beware strict interpretation of text out of context. Certainly there were few boars and bears along the river Aire in old Yorkshire. Remeber that this was originally a kill dog and not a pack dog. If we "split" the breed agressively, we run the risk of 15 different Airedales. A split is often a merely shattering (and therefore only destructive), unless the jeweler is skilled.

Dave in NYC

[Wolfer]

Hey don I wonder which great great great ETC grandparent of GATOR that one is ;D.........




Srry Curt I couldnt quite resist ;D

[hicntry]

Hey Dave, Happy New Year. I knew we would get you here on this one.

"Many of you realize that the current administration is in power as a "reaction" to the perception that (among other things) the actual purpose of this club, which was perceived perversely to be breed shows, had been led astray."

Are you saying that they don't like the general opinion that they are a show oriented organization? Is there plans of correcting this perception that they have somehow, wrongly acquired? If so, how so? I never doubted that there were qualified people on the board but, the general direction always seem to be to same. It would be terrific if as much importance was given to working abilities as the importance of looks. Looks is self governing because no one wants a dog that looks like Thunder. Working abilities requires time in the field....lots of it. This may be the problem in this day and age.

[hicntry]

Kyle, Maybe it is Scott's Thunder...you think??? I'll be watching Curt's signature from now on to see if he includes a Thunder in there.LOL

[Michael]

Interesting thread....some thoughts.....
Washouts in defense/protection in the "old days"...so much compulsion was used way back then that most dogs washed out. Dobes, Rotts, GSD's Mals etc as well as Airedales are inherently protective of the home front. Competent training makes the dog effective as a defense tool. Cassius Clay had a ton of natural talent but competent training made him "the greatest". A lot of people do not think that any dog should be trained to aggress a human being. Without getting into that swamp, I will say this...the reason that so few dogs are good at protection has to do with a simple fact that has yet to be mentioned, Man is the King of the Predators and all dogs know it, instinctively. It is a very special dog which thinks it can overcome man in a fight and I am not talking about a sport dog either. The dog that thinks it can, is not found everyday. Yes a dog can be trained to respond to a choreographed routine which includes protection but that is not the same thing as a real protection dog.
The fetch topic....it is not a natural behavior for a dog to deliver prey to a superior predator, it must be conditioned in the vast majority of dogs. Sure there are some isolated populations which do fetch "naturally" but overall it is a rarity in the dog world.
The ATCA board does not truly have anyone on it that is going to promote protection or hunting on the same par as showing. Come on folks think about it...a clicker trainer is considered a well respected behaviorist? Behaviorists by definition believe that all animals learn the same way...dolphins, pigeons and dogs. The simple truth is that this is not accurate. Advanced AKC obedience degrees is indicative of working potential in the dog or trainer? I don't believe it. Variable Surface Tracking...HMMMM...isn't the environment a hodgepodge of variable surfaces? Agility? I'd bet Don T's best hog dog has better moves than swamp gas and yet couldn't pass an AKC agility event unless it was trained for it. And while I personally feel that Dale B is the best of the current bunch, taking bites on a sleeve or in a suit fearlessly is hardly the only attribute of a "great agitator". Good decoys/agitators/helpers are about as rare as good protection dogs. Go to a Michael Ellis seminar sometime and enjoy the humbling his agitation work puts on "good decoys" or get the tour at Lackland and see how the boys at DoD do it.
Fortunately or no, the Airedale has always been a "split" breed of hunting vs showing fans. I for one doubt it will ever change. There is always going to be a desire to bring the breed together and the desire to keep it split. It is an issue of the value systems of the people involved. On the one hand the breed purists who think in terms of the omniscient authority of the show ring judge and the other hand has those who think that pretty is as pretty does. And this doesn't even address the warnings of population geneticists about the entire "breed purity" concept and the ill effect it is having on all dogs of pure breed registry. In a very real sense, the ATCA, by following along with the pure breed concept is helping the AKC doom our Airedales to a genetic cul de sac of poor health, mental and physical.
The ATCA is, always has been and always will be a social club. When and if they ever decide to put utilitarian working ability as demonstrated by a team of handler and dog above the three minute assessment of the competitive show ring , then the organization may be worth belonging to. Until then, I'll spend my dues dollars at Fat Esther's Boutique and Bait Shop in Leakey.