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Post by oksaradt on Jan 4, 2008 13:03:55 GMT -5
I realized I didn't answer one of your questions about L.E. having HRD dogs. For the most part, you won't find HRD dogs on municipal squads because they are difficult to cost justify. I'm not sure if there is anyone trying to market them, but narc dogs are very expensive. L.E. can justify that cost in that the recoveries of these dogs usually outweigh their cost in resale of drug dealers ill-gotten goods and recovered drug money. HRD dogs are only needed when a homicide detective needs "the body" or what's left.
Hope that helps,
jim
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Post by terrierlvr on Jan 7, 2008 21:16:37 GMT -5
<<A nice book to start with is “Forensic Taphonomy, Vol. 1”. You can find it on amazon. Vol. 2 is more for archeologist. For death investigations, a good book is “Spitz And Fisher's Medicolegal Investigation Of Death: Guidelines For The Application Of Pathology To Crime Investigation”>> Jim, thanks for these recommendations. I'll make note. >>]If you want to do SAR, join a SAR group. If you want to do only HRD, you have multiple options. I think finding a SAR group you can learn with would still be valuable for you, but yes, it’s very political. I sometimes think it’s a transfer of personalities from the conformation and dog competition worlds. When I first started in SAR, I attended trainings for months without looking for a dog as I wanted to see what I needed in a dog and I also wanted to see what training I needed to do. I think this is really the best way for SAR dog handlers to approach it, i.e. train themselves first and then concentrate on a dog. But, most bring their “muffy” who can find everyone’s socks and then leave when Muffy washes out.>> I have no interest, whatsoever, in anything other than HRD. I have gotten some pretty odd looks from folks when I say that, but that's just me. I was a forensic nurse for 15 years, dealing with Colorado's finest criminals. I have no interest in avalanche, live find, attention, notoriety or fame. I prefer to work behind the scenes with little or no attention paid to me. That is my personal style. I am starting to see that I could take just this route and forget any training that involves other SAR type work. <<If you do go a SAR unit route, I’d visit all the groups available in your area. An old team mate moved from Oklahoma to Colorado some years back and stated it was very political in the state group. He had to cert in rock climbing (which is probably a good thing in that state), but (in his opinion) they didn’t do HRD up right. (shrug)>> Is he doing HRD at all here? Any chance of my getting in touch with him? <<There is no simple answer to your question as you are subject to the political wind. You might find a county sheriff and coroner that think you and your dog are the best thing since sliced bread only for them to be voted out and the next officials think dogs can’t sniff their way out of their butts.>> I guess the way I look at it is, I train a dog and get a dog to where I want it to be, and if it works out that I am able to have the dog actually perform a role that would be beneficial, that would be wonderful, but it would not be the end of the world for me if that does not happen. <<There are myriads of wrong ways to burn your bridges with law enforcement and my becoming L.E. definitely helped. >> Oh yes, I am more than familiar with that. Not much for burning bridges but have seen MANY another persons' bridge go up in smoke! <<I know many HRD dog handlers that become reserve deputies to get past the uneasiness L.E. has with civilian liability and (often) lack of professionalism. So, there is another option for you, find out if you want to become a reserve deputy and if they offer such opportunities in your area.>> Denver does not have this. Other counties might, but I would have to do a bit of research on that. << As you’ll read in one of the other posts, I did train with an infamous character, Sandra Anderson, who at the time was considered the best by Quantico. As Sande preached ethics night and day, it was a shock to all of us that she didn’t practice what she preached and salted her searches so that her dog, Eagle, was making finds. This is unethical as well as puts all cases she and her dog worked in jeopardy as needing to be re-tried. A lot of good dog handlers either just gave up or went underground for a while, working for L.E. quietly. >> I did read about this in this forum and elsewhere. Boy, that must have done some serious damage to relationships all over. There are sociopaths/narcissists everywhere, even amongst us. <<I really prefer doing HRD work this way. I like going in without any fan fare, working the scene, presenting the results, and leaving just as quietly. Most of the HRD dog handlers I know that stick with it do it for the “hunt”, “puzzle”, or the zone it puts them with their dog. >> You sound like me. <<So, you might want to consider if you want to do fresh remains only, fresh remains up to a certain time dead, historic work. Historic work is really the most demanding and probably the easiest to find work. >> Is historic primarily cemetary work and the likes? Sounds rather interesting, and less intense. <<Another option for you to pursue if you’d like to do this long term is to go through the forensic nursing route. The university I pursued a masters in forensic science at had such a program, but we only had two nurses in our group. They decided to pursue a Technical Investigator path instead. One is a death investigator in Houston now. The other (I believe) went a psych nurse route. Get a forensic nurse cert and you could probably get elected as Coroner in your county and deploy yourself for recoveries.>> My days of formal school are DONE, thank you very much. I considered being a coroner about 12 to 15 years ago but as nurse, I worked 3 12 hour shifts a week and as a coroner, I would have worked 5 8's. We were raising two kids then and it would not have been ideal. Also, it would have been about a 40% pay cut, which would have severly affected my pension. If I had done that, I'd be working til I was 90! >>]From the L.E. officers I’ve spoken with (and this by no means says this is the rule everywhere) is that K9 officer tends to be viewed as a plum job as you are insured your own vehicle, you get so much automatic overtime for canine care, and you get so much time off for designated canine maintenance, i.e. training, vet, whatever. I have spoken with several frustrated officers with lots of dog training experience that were turned down such positions because they didn’t have the seniority. decades and stuck with it because they were good at it.>> This sounds like the case, exactly. << I like dobies and love working with these teams, but going in you should realize that (and these people know their breed very well) dobies are fraught with health problems and few working dobies live as long as I expect most ADTs to live. >> Believe me, that is my major concern. If it were not for health issues, my first choice would be a Doberman. However, an Airedale would suit me fine, as well. One more breed I am considering, and wonder if you have any exposure to, HRD wise, is a Giant Schnauzer. Any thoughts? << My opinion is that it comes down to your personality. I enjoy training and working with my ADTs more than I do when working with the dobies. And, if you can’t have fun doing this, then you should do something else.>> What makes them more fun for you? Thanks also for your comments on explosive/narc dogs versus HRD on LE units. Makes total sense. Thanks for all your help. Bonnie
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Post by oksaradt on Jan 7, 2008 22:56:56 GMT -5
<<<<I have no interest, whatsoever, in anything other than HRD. I have gotten some pretty odd looks from folks when I say that, but that's just me. I was a forensic nurse for 15 years, dealing with Colorado's finest criminals. I have no interest in avalanche, live find, attention, notoriety or fame. I prefer to work behind the scenes with little or no attention paid to me. That is my personal style. I am starting to see that I could take just this route and forget any training that involves other SAR type work.>>>> Usually when I work with L.E., they consider me like a specialist technician. The dog is cute, sure, but I’m the operator of the special resource and I’ll know its limitations and how we work. It gets a bit weird when I go out for the M.E. with my dogs and we make a find. I then have to wait as a death investigator to assist in recovery. Most HRD dog handlers get to go home when they are done. I’ll never forget the look of utter pleasure on a deputy’s face when a vehicle with remains was pulled out of a water way as he suddenly realized “the M.E. is on-scene” as that means I was tasked with the actual recovery of the remains. This was a nice example where my dogs were just a small part of the team required. The real heroes were the divers that took what my dogs told us and found the vehicle. If you do want to “free lance HRD”, I would query the L.E. you’d expect to work with and ask them what certifications (if any) they require. For years I carried a resume with my stats, qualifications, references. I never once was asked to present it. I do offer to let a blind test be run if they want. You are always only as good as your last search. <<<<If you do go a SAR unit route, I’d visit all the groups available in your area. An old team mate moved from Oklahoma to Colorado some years back and stated it was very political in the state group. He had to cert in rock climbing (which is probably a good thing in that state), but (in his opinion) they didn’t do HRD up right. (shrug)>> Is he doing HRD at all here? Any chance of my getting in touch with him?>>>> He decided that real estate was more lucrative than investment banking and moved back to Oklahoma. Last email I traded with him he’d decided to not work dogs for a while. He’d worked newfies and mals, neither quite fit his personality. I truly believe if the handler and dog breed aren’t in sync that it makes the work feel “out of sync” for both. <<<<There is no simple answer to your question as you are subject to the political wind. You might find a county sheriff and coroner that think you and your dog are the best thing since sliced bread only for them to be voted out and the next officials think dogs can’t sniff their way out of their butts.>> I guess the way I look at it is, I train a dog and get a dog to where I want it to be, and if it works out that I am able to have the dog actually perform a role that would be beneficial, that would be wonderful, but it would not be the end of the world for me if that does not happen.>>>> The best dog handlers (that I know personally) in HRD train for the love of the puzzle and like to quietly set up problems for each other that challenge. You have to have trust in each other that the purpose of the blinds are for improving both the dog and the handler rather than to belittle. It’s easy to set someone up to fail if one understands scent, but no one wins. Yet, in SAR I see this happen over and over again, more of the competitive personalities. I know an excellent HRD handler in a SE state who gave it up for a couple of years and suddenly got a new puppy to start again because she missed the challenge. I hope to get to train with her at least once this year as she always sets up some fun problems to work out. Training a dog to do HRD just for the sheer joy of it and if it turns out you find yourself assisting L.E. down the road is probably the best attitude to take. Most that are new in SAR are so hungry for searches that many jump at call-outs before they are really prepared to do the “victim” a proper service. A lot of SAR groups discount how difficult HRD work can be and decide to pick it up as a sideline. <<<< As you’ll read in one of the other posts, I did train with an infamous character, Sandra Anderson, who at the time was considered the best by Quantico. As Sande preached ethics night and day, it was a shock to all of us that she didn’t practice what she preached and salted her searches so that her dog, Eagle, was making finds. This is unethical as well as puts all cases she and her dog worked in jeopardy as needing to be re-tried. A lot of good dog handlers either just gave up or went underground for a while, working for L.E. quietly. >> I did read about this in this forum and elsewhere. Boy, that must have done some serious damage to relationships all over. There are sociopaths/narcissists everywhere, even amongst us.>>>> It would seem so. I did some research on sociopaths after the fact and the estimates are that 4% of us are sociopaths to one degree or another. The other 96% are easily fooled as we all tend to assume the other guy sees life as we do and will follow the Golden Rule. Odd thing is that some sociopaths have done great things. It all depends on their ultimate goals in life and at what cost they are willing to go to. <<<<Is historic primarily cemetary work and the likes? Sounds rather interesting, and less intense.>>>> The definition varies, but there are multiple applications of historic work. Documenting cemeteries is one avenue. Archeologists can utilize historic dogs if trained for really old remains. I was given what was supposed to be bone dust in sand from a dig of over 3,000 years old. I’m not sure how I could prove this, so I take that number with a grain of salt. I’ve probably had the most fun finding family plots on homesteads where the locals all new the future generations of those lost and would be telling me stories while my dog worked to locate the plots. Historic dogs are also going to have an easier time finding scattered skeletal remains than a dog started on a tissue training. I like to believe that my thrust of starting my dogs on only skeletal/dental for the first year reinforces this skill. Dr. Bill Bass’s new book repeats his formula for how long it takes a body to go from dead to skeletal remains. You can add the average temperature for each day dead till the total reaches between 1250 to 1500. So, in an Oklahoma summer, a body can be bare bones in two weeks. For the formula to work, I’m sure average temperature has to exceed 38’F for that’s the temperature where decomposition can occur. I believe Shirley Hammond, Eva Cecil, and Adela Morris are heading up a California group that now focuses on just historical work. You can check them out at: www.k9forensic.org/Shirley Hammond is very big on dobies as she worked them for years with FEMA. <<<<My days of formal school are DONE, thank you very much. I considered being a coroner about 12 to 15 years ago but as nurse, I worked 3 12 hour shifts a week and as a coroner, I would have worked 5 8's. We were raising two kids then and it would not have been ideal. Also, it would have been about a 40% pay cut, which would have severely affected my pension. If I had done that, I'd be working til I was 90!>>>> I’m with you there, though I’ll probably still take a college course from time to time. Going for a 2nd masters at my mid-40’s was quite a trip. My engineering work pays the bills. I do the death investigation work because I enjoy the work. It definitely doesn’t pay as well. <<<< I like dobies and love working with these teams, but going in you should realize that (and these people know their breed very well) dobies are fraught with health problems and few working dobies live as long as I expect most ADTs to live. >> Believe me, that is my major concern. If it were not for health issues, my first choice would be a Doberman. However, an Airedale would suit me fine, as well. One more breed I am considering, and wonder if you have any exposure to, HRD wise, is a Giant Schnauzer. Any thoughts?>>>> I have worked with a few of the Giant Schnauzers at one seminar. If you went this route, you’d have to really concentrate on finding one that kept his nose to the ground. Those I worked with tended to keep their noses in the air. For HRD work, you need a dog that puts its nose down to pursue scent. The Otter Hound in ADTs can produce some very groundie dogs (nose to ground). This is what you’d need to look for in any breed for HRD work. <<<< My opinion is that it comes down to your personality. I enjoy training and working with my ADTs more than I do when working with the dobies. And, if you can’t have fun doing this, then you should do something else.>> What makes them more fun for you?>>>> 1 – their tenacity. I’ve seen way too many dogs fall short because they wouldn’t penetrate the brush if the scent took them there. On more than one occasion I couldn’t see my dogs work, but I could hear them as they broke through the underbrush in pursuit of scent. I’ve trained and worked my dogs in lots of crappy weather. As long as there is scent to pursue, it’s not an issue. The first time I had to test on cemetery work, we had a downpour for most of our allotted time. We kept working and passed. 2 – I have a very “Far Side” and “Outlands” (Berke Breathed) sense of humor. My ADTs seem to pick up on this sense of humor as their own as well. It’s the only breed I’ve had that has done so. I’ve owned Labs, GSDs, Mastiffs, Pointers, and entered life with my mother breeding poodles. I have great respect for the learning capacity of poodles, but have only seen one standard poodle that was decent in SAR. I’ve worked with many other breeds and still enjoy working with ADTs the most. I always have to smile when I get “arrooooo’d”. 3 – Their need to be challenged. Most ADTs I’ve worked with don’t deal well with repetitive training unless you make it challenging for them in some way. So, when thrown into what many dogs would see as a threatening situation, the ADTs see it as yet another one of my twisted problems for them to solve. Dobies know how to work a crowd better. They’ll slide up to people for stroking. They have their own sense of humor, but it comes off like a mythical sprite where the ADT comes off as the leprechaun. Jim
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Post by terrierlvr on Jan 9, 2008 20:24:12 GMT -5
Ok, now I have a few questions. Going way back to your posts on temperament testing and puppy testing, at what age do you do this? When you discuss alpha or dominance in a specific puppy, and you say it doesn't matter which- when you are evaluating- do you mean it doesn't matter whether a dog appears more dominant or assertive, in terms of how effective HRD training will be with that specific puppy, or that it only matters in terms of whether you want a more dominant or assertive dog in general? <<If you do want to “free lance HRD”, I would query the L.E. you’d expect to work with and ask them what certifications (if any) they require. >> I am working on that presently. <<If you do go a SAR unit route, I’d visit all the groups available in your area. An old team mate moved from Oklahoma to Colorado some years back and stated it was very political in the state group. He had to cert in rock climbing (which is probably a good thing in that state), but (in his opinion) they didn’t do HRD up right.>> Ok, and perhaps I am just dense, but I still don't get the interrelation of all these groups. I have NO interest in rock climbing or becoming an alpine SAR person. I have no interest in finding lost souls in the woods. I am only interested in HRD. I DO see alot of merit in going with the SARDOC folks ( search and rescue dogs of Colorado) and watch them train, and I can work with them with a dog, when I get one. These are informal training sessions of varying disciplines of SAR. They are interesting to me, but I am not interested in training a dog for these disciplines. I figure, no harm done by observing and watching what people do and how they do it. So......if I am ONLY going to do HRD, is there any validity or any reason for me to even try to get joined up with a county SAR group? The application process varies greatly for time of year, training involved, meetings, testing, etc. I will do it, if I really have to, but I am assuming that since I would be training for a rather unique discipline, it would not necessarily require this additional set of training? I know I asked this before and you gave me an answer, but it still seems as though that is the "expected" route to go. When I went to the first SARDOC practice, they asked me "what team are you planning on joining?" Heck, I plan on joining MY team......me and my dog! ;D There are teams, and there are teams!!!!! <<I truly believe if the handler and dog breed aren’t in sync that it makes the work feel “out of sync” for both.>> Leads to my next question. I have owned terriers for 30 plus years but I am more of a working dog personality. I can live with either group. Do you feel that it is more a matter of personal preference which breed a person should choose for HRD work and that based on that, assuming the person has chosen the appropriate puppy from a litter for training, that the person could be successful? Do you feel that there are some specific breeds who clearly are more successful at HRD work than others? Based on a dog needing a great nose, why are hounds not used more for HRD, or are they and I am just not aware? Have you seen any Rhodesian Ridgebacks do this work? <<The best dog handlers (that I know personally) in HRD train for the love of the puzzle and like to quietly set up problems for each other that challenge. >> In the course of a given week, how long do you train each week and in what increments? <<You have to have trust in each other that the purpose of the blinds are for improving both the dog and the handler rather than to belittle. It’s easy to set someone up to fail if one understands scent, but no one wins. Yet, in SAR I see this happen over and over again, more of the competitive personalities. >> I can easily envision this happening in SAR. I can see the competition involved of who gets called out more than another, etc. There is talk about which county gets calls more than others, etc. I don't care for all that stuff. I am not interested in competition. I am more interested in the personal relationship I have with my dog/dogs. <<I know an excellent HRD handler in a SE state who gave it up for a couple of years and suddenly got a new puppy to start again because she missed the challenge. I hope to get to train with her at least once this year as she always sets up some fun problems to work out.>> How do you provide the opportunities to train with other HRD people/ Are there really that many in any given region who can train together? Do you know of any folks in Colorado who do HRD whom I could contact? Next question. This is my biggest question. I am interested in how multidimensional your training is with puppies. How much time, for example, is spent each day doing specific HRD exercises and it what context is it done? Knowing terriers as well as I do, I know it must be fun and interesting and not too repetitive or boring because they will clearly lose interest quickly. In addition, what other training do you do with your puppies, in terms of manners, obedience, accountability, socialization? When I say "your dogs," I mean what you do yourself and advise to others. Could you give me " a day in the life of a puppy" in your household? Are your dogs house dogs or kennel dogs? Mine would strictly be house dogs but kennel trained, of course. <<Training a dog to do HRD just for the sheer joy of it and if it turns out you find yourself assisting L.E. down the road is probably the best attitude to take. Most that are new in SAR are so hungry for searches that many jump at call-outs before they are really prepared to do the “victim” a proper service. >> No urgency here. I like the cemetery stuff. That would be a great start, to me. <<A lot of SAR groups discount how difficult HRD work can be and decide to pick it up as a sideline.>> I can see there would be a great advantage to specializing in ONLY HRD. Is this more of a newer trend to do this? Do you see HRD only trained dogs as more successful than cross trained dogs? << Odd thing is that some sociopaths have done great things. It all depends on their ultimate goals in life and at what cost they are willing to go to.>> Yes, indeed. Many sociopaths are overachievers, very successful and thrive on the thrill of living on the edge. Another question for you, or others. I am not an obsessed personality. I am a serious personality. I am not going to embark on this with the intentions of spending every living breathing minute doing nothing else. I work a little, I travel ALOT, and I enjoy my home, my garden, my husband, and my grown kids. MOST of my spare time is involved in dogs. I have opted to change my energy and focus to HRD, if I think I can be useful. I am able and willing to spend a good bit of time learning and doing this, but I am not an obsessive person who is going to do this all day long. Is that a bad thing? <<I believe Shirley Hammond, Eva Cecil, and Adela Morris are heading up a California group that now focuses on just historical work. You can check them out at: www.k9forensic.org/>>Will definitely do so. Shirley's name has come up a few times and on another forum I lurk on. Thx. Speaking of FEMA, does FEMA have their OWN trained dogs or do they rely on calling in certified dogs from a variety of jurisdictions, depending on the catastrophe? Was there a huge increase/demand/interest in SAR and HRD trained dogs after Oklahoma City and 9/11? << My engineering work pays the bills. I do the death investigation work because I enjoy the work. It definitely doesn’t pay as well.>> I surely have never regretted being a nurse. It has served me well. If I had my life to live over again, though, I would have been a forensic pathologist or a coroner. We only get to go down this road once though. <<I have worked with a few of the Giant Schnauzers at one seminar. If you went this route, you’d have to really concentrate on finding one that kept his nose to the ground. Those I worked with tended to keep their noses in the air. >> I sure do love a good Giant. I take it you see Airedales as more ground driven than this breed. Do you see Dobies as more ground driven than air? <<1 – their tenacity. I’ve seen way too many dogs fall short because they wouldn’t penetrate the brush if the scent took them there. >> Do you see Airedales as being more tenacious in this work than a Doberman or similar working breed? I have owned some INCREDIBLY driven small terriers. Why is it that smaller terriers, such as the Lakeland or JRT, are never used in SAR or HRD? << I have great respect for the learning capacity of poodles, but have only seen one standard poodle that was decent in SAR. Any idea why that might be? << Their need to be challenged. Most ADTs I’ve worked with don’t deal well with repetitive training unless you make it challenging for them in some way. >> Yup. True of any terrier I've ever had. Gotta have a challenge and they love a good mind game. <<So, when thrown into what many dogs would see as a threatening situation, the ADTs see it as yet another one of my twisted problems for them to solve. >> Do you not see this same character in a Doberman? <<Dobies know how to work a crowd better. They’ll slide up to people for stroking. They have their own sense of humor, but it comes off like a mythical sprite where the ADT comes off as the leprechaun.>> I can easily see that. Jim, again, thanks SO very much for taking all the time to answer my questions. This has been the most information I have gleaned from any specific spot. Really appreciate your time. Bonnie
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Post by oksaradt on Jan 10, 2008 16:21:59 GMT -5
*Ok, now I have a few questions. Going way back to your posts on temperament testing and puppy testing, at what age do you do this? When you discuss alpha or dominance in a specific puppy, and you say it doesn't matter which- when you are evaluating- do you mean it doesn't matter whether a dog appears more dominant or assertive, in terms of how effective HRD training will be with that specific puppy, or that it only matters in terms of whether you want a more dominant or assertive dog in general? *
++ Without going back through my posts…. Dominance is a personality trait. Alpha is a position. Alpha is not personality dependent and this position is or can be very fluid within a pack. My attitude is you should know the type of dog personality YOU work with best and temperament test for this personality. I don’t do well with “soft” dogs. I can work with them, but their personalities grate on me. While many people detest a “hard” dog, I train via lots of repetitions such that once a “hard” dog has it, it takes a long time to lose it. Many “soft” dogs do what ever they think will please you at the moment. This is a reason I don’t prefer to train GSDs any more because it’s been my experience that the breed as a whole is too ready to please their handler. When I tested for my first ADT, I decided I wanted a strong, dominant dog. I got what I tested for and she has the reputation of being the “fun monitor” at seminars such that she’ll wade into a group of dogs and disperse them. Her attitude has required her to be tested more than once to see if she was aggressive before we’d be allowed to participate in a seminar. She always passed their tests with flying colors. She is lead aggressive such that I could lay down on a slope, go to sleep, and she would not allow anyone to approach me if she was on lead. My solution to this if it appears aggressive is I take her off-lead, push her towards who she is growling at, and tell her to go kick their ass. She grumbles and comes in next to me to sit. No lead, no aggression. She is very dominant except with me, but we did have our times of testing to decide if I was “da boss”. The next dog I tested for me was to be less dominant and she was exactly what I expected. This newest puppy is in between the both of them and I expect he’ll be less aggressive in public, but less likely to be a party child. I would pass on puppies that are too submissive as this will translate into compliant when that’s not always what is required to solve a scent problem. HRD requires a dog that works the problem the way it is trained despite what the handler thinks is going on with a search. In other words, I’ve seen way too many dogs indicate for their handlers because their handlers decided where the scent source was coming from. The handler would then be confused as to why the dog “false alerted”. This is why I train my dogs to think I’m a total scent moron and that their commitment to the source will be rewarded. ….I’m not sure if that answered your question.++++
*Ok, and perhaps I am just dense, but I still don't get the interrelation of all these groups. I have NO interest in rock climbing or becoming an alpine SAR person. I have no interest in finding lost souls in the woods. I am only interested in HRD. I DO see alot of merit in going with the SARDOC folks ( search and rescue dogs of Colorado) and watch them train, and I can work with them with a dog, when I get one. These are informal training sessions of varying disciplines of SAR. They are interesting to me, but I am not interested in training a dog for these disciplines. I figure, no harm done by observing and watching what people do and how they do it. So......if I am ONLY going to do HRD, is there any validity or any reason for me to even try to get joined up with a county SAR group? The application process varies greatly for time of year, training involved, meetings, testing, etc. I will do it, if I really have to, but I am assuming that since I would be training for a rather unique discipline, it would not necessarily require this additional set of training? I know I asked this before and you gave me an answer, but it still seems as though that is the "expected" route to go. When I went to the first SARDOC practice, they asked me "what team are you planning on joining?" Heck, I plan on joining MY team......me and my dog! There are teams, and there are teams!!!!!**
++ There are several reasons to start off with a team, be it a SAR team or a Recovery team. There are some dog groups forming that are strictly HRD dogs. The biggest reason is that training an HRD dog is not intuitively obvious to the casual observer. There are books out there now that supposedly teach how to train an HRD dog. I’ve had lots of dog handlers come to me with the complaint that the book isn’t doing it for them. Books can help us improve, I’ve yet to find a book that can communicate a craft and HRD dog handling is a craft if done well. So, if nothing else, you need to work with some other dog handlers that work scent of some kind and that can show you what to look for in a dog. After you feel you’ve trained your dog to a point where you feel confident it will find human remains in situations you expect to work, then you need someone to set up Blinds for you. We really learn more about ourselves and our dogs working blinds then we ever learn training the dog in known scent problems. You quickly learn if you cue the dog, if you don’t trust the dog, if the dog can work the problem without you, and if there are problems you’ve never considered before. If possible, you need someone that knows the scent you work with to set up the blinds so they can help you learn what your dog is doing in scent. If not, some of the most frustrating problems can be those set up by novices that have no clue what scent does and “thought it would be neat to see what you and your dog would do IF….. Never mind that they may set up a problem that can never occur in the real world…….. But, the more I do this, the more real life continues to throw curve balls at me and my dogs. It’s definitely helpful to have others training HRD dogs accessible to you locally so you can learn from each other. I had a local training partner for 8 years where we both went through the same SAR experiences together, both decided to specialize in HRD, etc. We set blinds up for each other routinely and learned immense amounts of scent knowledge from those blinds. She passed away and there are many times I wish she was around to set me up a blind to work. Life happens and we move on. I also have many very good dog handlers around the country that I stay in touch with and travel to them and them to me to work each others’ blinds. Blinds are the main way you maintain the credibility of your dog. You can document who set up the problem and what happened. If you go to court, the prosecution or defense can bring in those people setting blinds for you and question them if what you claim in your logs really happened; Otherwise, it all comes down to how honest you are in your logs. Finally, unless you plan to only search in Eastern Colorado….which looks very much like Kansas where many people are found simply by shouting for them to “stand up!”….. well, you need to develop the skills to work in those mountains with your dog. A SAR group is a good place to do that. If you plan to never work outside your county, this may be a non-issue, but I’ve probably done as many searches out of state as I have in state. I’ve done searches in very steep rocky areas, mesas, swamps, prairie, rivers, creeks, lakes, heavily wooded, etc. My SAR skills definitely came in handy when I was the most experienced person on the scene. Something to think about…………++
**<<I truly believe if the handler and dog breed aren’t in sync that it makes the work feel “out of sync” for both.>> Leads to my next question. I have owned terriers for 30 plus years but I am more of a working dog personality. I can live with either group. Do you feel that it is more a matter of personal preference which breed a person should choose for HRD work and that based on that, assuming the person has chosen the appropriate puppy from a litter for training, that the person could be successful?**
++ I believe HRD dogs should be chosen from dog breeds with proven scenting ability. Any dog can find exposed bones in the right place at the right time, but not many dogs can find bones under feet of soil, tens of feet of water, hanging 20 feet up in a tree, under concrete, in rocks high above, etc. If you want to try a breed not normally used, honest testing of the litters(plural…most likely) will demonstrate to you if you can find a dog in that breed that’s capable of doing the work. If a puppy hits on the scent of dried teeth on the surface then it can most likely be trained to find teeth buried in the earth.++
**Do you feel that there are some specific breeds who clearly are more successful at HRD work than others? **
++ I know I’ve seen specific breeds in the field and at seminars. That doesn’t mean I’ve seen every breed that can do the job. I’d want a dog that has a long nose just because it should have a better tool to work with. I’ve yet to see any Beagles doing HRD, but I don’t see why they couldn’t. I just can’t stand their baying. Breeds I’ve seen at seminars GSDs, Labs, Mals, Tervs, Dobies, Bernese Mtn dog, Bloodhounds, ADTs, GSPs, a few rotties, Goldens……just off the top of my head. Most handlers make the assumption that I’ve a very skilled dog handler because ADTs have such a reputation of being difficult to train….I’m sorry, I find them easy to work. Perhaps it’s because I train every day of their life. My dogs have to do something for everything they eat, no free lunches, no free toys.++
**Based on a dog needing a great nose, why are hounds not used more for HRD, or are they and I am just not aware?**
++ Usually you see bloodhounds cross trained with trailing/tracking as their primary job and cadaver secondary. Most likely this is due to what the dogs are selected for in the first place. Necrosearch’s cadaver dog is a bloodhound. ++
**Have you seen any Rhodesian Ridgebacks do this work?**
++Nope, but that might mean I just haven’t been in the right place at the right time. This reminds me though, I have seen some EXCELLENT Vizlas do HRD work. I know a handler in a neighboring state that trains only Vizlas and I would search with her any day, any time, any where. Her dogs rock! ++
**In the course of a given week, how long do you train each week and in what increments?**
++With puppies, I usually train 3 times a day with the training being around 5-10 minutes. As the dog gets older and its attention span getting longer, I’ll move to once a day for 10-20 minutes. As I observe the dog’s attention span lengthening, I’ll go to every other day for scent work and the off-days used for agility, obedience, socialization. Part of my training method is building an obsession for the reward, so off-days heighten the importance of the reward. They don’t work scent, they don’t get the “magic show with the special reward.” When I train my dogs I vary “the show”. Some days I’m Peewee Herman (before the X-rate theatre), some days I’m Peter Pan, some days I’m the hunter leading my little pack. ADTs love a good show. I give them one. Odd thing is, all dogs loves a good show, but many dog handlers feel they have to don the red hat, chew tobaccy, and play John Wayne with the command, “DAWG!” and the reward of “*SPIT* good dawg…..don’t lick that, I just spit it out….dang, that’s gross….”….(you get my point). My dogs love searching for HRD because I make it the best game in town. Eventually, they get to the point where the game is more important than the show and my job is to simply keep them working in an organized fashion. Soooo, for a dog older than a year, I train in scent every other day minimum unless the job dictates otherwise.++
**How do you provide the opportunities to train with other HRD people/ Are there really that many in any given region who can train together? Do you know of any folks in Colorado who do HRD whom I could contact?**
++Basically you network, go to seminars, find other dog handlers who work similarly to you, i.e. have the same dog training philosophy, trade emails,…..it takes time to develop a good group you can learn from and trust. Usually those same people will be dog teams you might call upon to help you in searches you don’t feel comfortable tackling on your own. Since my buddy left Colorado and Cheryl Kennedy moved south, I’ve lost any Colorado contacts. Best thing to do is to visit with all the SAR groups, ask around with L.E. (since you have an in there that many don’t), the state agencies, etc. and find out who they consider decent in HRD. Even when there is competition between SAR groups, they may begrudgingly admit other dog handlers that have decent HRD dogs. ++
**Next question. This is my biggest question. I am interested in how multidimensional your training is with puppies. How much time, for example, is spent each day doing specific HRD exercises and it what context is it done? Knowing terriers as well as I do, I know it must be fun and interesting and not too repetitive or boring because they will clearly lose interest quickly. In addition, what other training do you do with your puppies, in terms of manners, obedience, accountability, socialization? When I say "your dogs," I mean what you do yourself and advise to others. Could you give me " a day in the life of a puppy" in your household? ** ++A decent HRD dog must have good off-lead obedience, be good at “disaster agility’ (can climb, jump over obstacles, tunnel, be comfortable on rubble, in old buildings, etc.) – there are no weave poles in HRD work, be able to present itself well in public(so a CGC or TDI) as you’ll have to work with L.E. and often may have to be in the middle of a group of people that aren’t dog people……all these the dog needs to be ADEQUATE at. The dog needs to be an expert in scent, the scent you’ve trained it for and the dog needs to develop search strategies in accord with you as to how to work various searches. My oldest dog and I have worked many cemeteries on the Oklahoma prairie with lots of wind. She taught herself to turn her head to one side such that she could better target where scent was coming up even in strong winds as she was walking along.
My current puppy (17 weeks old) gets fed his kibble first after an off-lead Sit and Wait (and the waits are slowly lengthening). He then has to earn his morning milk bone in 8 pieces by doing barks, sits, downs, climbs, tunnels, Here’s (all off-lead – I train backwards, first off-lead then on-lead). He gets to go play with the big dogs. He’s now on the every other day cycle (minimum) but will get scent training the next four concurrent days as I’m on-call. I spent an hour setting up scent problems this morning to work over the next four days. He has bones in mulch and single-tooth problem sets to work. Right now he doesn’t work scent longer than 20 minutes as that’s when he might get distracted…..I’m happy with that at this age. We do agility on my wire spools, cat walks, floating platform. We climb gullies and go through dense woods together on my land. ++
**Are your dogs house dogs or kennel dogs? Mine would strictly be house dogs but kennel trained, of course. **
++ I have two acres set aside just for my dogs. I have three “kennels” which are each 30 feet by 40 feet that allow me to separate dogs, put a foster ADT up, etc. I prefer to keep my working dogs acclimated to the weather. I can’t afford to have a dog used to A/C go out to work an 85degree Oklahoma summer night as it would be panting the entire time. If the dog is panting, you’ve lost a good amount of its scenting ability. On the reverse, I keep the dogs outside in winter unless the temperature drops into or below single digits. They have double walled structures on wood floors packed with hay and individual igloos in those shelters. I’ve spent several winter nights outside with my dogs in their shelters as I’d go out to visit and fall asleep with them lying around me. My dogs do get to spend time in my office if they are sick, injured, or worked really hard and it is seen as a reward to spend “special time” alone with me apart with the other dogs….again, an earned reward. When I tested Tempe in Pueblo, CO, I’d driven up in a snow storm and first tested the 5-week old litter just before dark with temps in the 20s. The puppies had a nice whelping barn, but it was a shelter, not inside. My attitude is we often have to search in crappy conditions, so if the puppy wimped out on me now, it would wimp out on me when it grew up. Is this the only way to do it? NOPE, just my way. Many of the handlers I work with keep their dogs in the house with them. It’s their call. ++++
**<<Training a dog to do HRD just for the sheer joy of it and if it turns out you find yourself assisting L.E. down the road is probably the best attitude to take. Most that are new in SAR are so hungry for searches that many jump at call-outs before they are really prepared to do the “victim” a proper service. >> No urgency here. I like the cemetery stuff. That would be a great start, to me.**
++ If you did only historic HRD work concentrating mainly on cemeteries, I know you’d make many genealogists very happy.++
<<A lot of SAR groups discount how difficult HRD work can be and decide to pick it up as a sideline.>> **I can see there would be a great advantage to specializing in ONLY HRD. Is this more of a newer trend to do this? Do you see HRD only trained dogs as more successful than cross trained dogs?**
++MY OPINION is that there is a place for cross-trained dogs and that’s tornadoes and disasters. If I worked my dogs in a tornado-hit home and there was someone unconscious, my dogs would walk right over them without a 2nd look. My dogs are trained this way so that L.E. can work right along side us, in front of us, behind us, etc. I don’t work my dogs in house clearing. With the SAR team I work with, I flank for the cross-trained dogs that are primarily live-find dogs that will also indicate/alert on blood and fresh remains such that everyone can be found. For anything past tissue-related HRD, I believe the specialist should be the only dogs working. There are applications for both. The cross dogs can work for the first 1-2 weeks of a disasters. My dogs can work for months or years afterwards. ++
**Another question for you, or others. I am not an obsessed personality. I am a serious personality. I am not going to embark on this with the intentions of spending every living breathing minute doing nothing else. I work a little, I travel ALOT, and I enjoy my home, my garden, my husband, and my grown kids. MOST of my spare time is involved in dogs. I have opted to change my energy and focus to HRD, if I think I can be useful. I am able and willing to spend a good bit of time learning and doing this, but I am not an obsessive person who is going to do this all day long. Is that a bad thing?**
++The reason I harp on this is from experience. Here is typically what happens with someone that wants to obedience train their dogs. They go to class and are told they must practice the rest of the week on their own. The first week they practice maybe 2 days and just before class. Soon they are finding reasons not to practice and just whip through a review just before racing to obedience class. Then they give their dog dirty looks and claim, “but he did so well when we did this just us two.”. With scent training, I often see the same issues and the handler just doesn’t have a clue why their dog isn’t progressing. I can’t make them train on their own. They must want to do it and be disciplined enough to do it. I’ve found over the years that it takes a lot longer time to set problems up than it does for an experienced dog to work them. Even worse, once the dog is done and squeaking it’s toy on my futon, I’m documenting the work in my logs. Obsession may not be the best word. Disciplined is probably the best word. Just like anything in life, you get out of a dog what you put into it. This is where I have the term, Hobbiest, the dog handler that only trains their dogs in scent when they come out to train with someone else once-a-week, every couple of weeks, etc. Then the same dog handler gets upset when their dog doesn’t progress and wants you to “fix the dog.” The dog isn’t broke, ….the handler might be, but the dog just hasn’t had proper and regular training. An HRD dog has to train all of its career, if nothing else, to maintain the nasal receptors for the sources you want it to work. ++
**Shirley's name has come up a few times and on another forum I lurk on. Thx.**
++Shirley is a very dear lady and a treasure trove on disaster dog handling and probably cracker-jack at Historic HRD now as well. ++
**Speaking of FEMA, does FEMA have their OWN trained dogs or do they rely on calling in certified dogs from a variety of jurisdictions, depending on the catastrophe? Was there a huge increase/demand/interest in SAR and HRD trained dogs after Oklahoma City and 9/11?**
++FEMA requires dogs that work on their Task Forces to live within 250-miles of the call out center to be able to make it to report within (I believe) 4 hours. The dog handlers are civilians just like us and they have to qualify to get on the team, both handler and dog. When the dog team is on a call-out, they are paid as government employees. All FEMA dogs are live-only dogs (or supposed to be by their own rules). Some of the FEMA dog handlers are now bringing Ca-Daster dogs as well to work cadaver after the “live victim” search time has passed. These dogs are not considered FEMA, but the handlers are…..it’s a grey area they are all looking the other way on right now. Homeland Security, ya gotta love it.++
**Do you see Dobies as more ground driven than air?**
++ I’ve seen examples of both. I think if you choose Doberman then you will have to test. If you choose this route, I know several people within the Doberman community that you should talk with as they know the breed much better than I do.++
**Do you see Airedales as being more tenacious in this work than a Doberman or similar working breed?**
++ No, as I’ve seen some ADTs at seminars that shouldn’t have been in search work. They didn’t want to be there and they didn’t like the scent work. I think its more starting with breeds with decent noses and finding the personality and scents traits necessary to make a good HRD dog++
** I have owned some INCREDIBLY driven small terriers. Why is it that smaller terriers, such as the Lakeland or JRT, are never used in SAR or HRD?**
++Having a JRT trapped in an 80 lb ADT body, I would have to say that most JRTs are considered to ADHD to do focused work. I’ve watched one of my HRD dogs literally lay splayed in front of ground with her head cocked and her nose twitching. I observed her in placed for an hour, so I quietly walked out and sat cross-legged near her. She suddenly lifted a paw and slapped the ground. A gopher tunnel appeared. This is indicative of the type of personality a dog must have for HRD work, willing to pursue the tiniest of scent to its source….sorry, best example I can give. I’m sure if properly screened that the right JRT could be found for the job. I think the JRT breeders would look at you like you were crazy, but hey you might as well enjoy the same looks I get.++
**<< I have great respect for the learning capacity of poodles, but have only seen one standard poodle that was decent in SAR. Any idea why that might be? **
++To be honest, I have to think it’s an image problem. This handler was at a NASAR seminar in Portland years ago. Even then, the contemporary breed handlers were pushing their noses up at the idea of a standard poodle doing search work. ++
<<So, when thrown into what many dogs would see as a threatening situation, the ADTs see it as yet another one of my twisted problems for them to solve. >> **Do you not see this same character in a Doberman?**
++ Again, yes, I’ve seen some great Dobermans work. I like the breed. I just wouldn’t put up with the health issues and their personality doesn’t fit me….different sense of humor. One of my best friends has dobies and is always complaining that they’ll steal her stuff and destroy it to punish her….. I love her dogs like my nephews, but not for me.++
**Jim, again, thanks SO very much for taking all the time to answer my questions. This has been the most information I have gleaned from any specific spot. Really appreciate your time. Bonnie**
+No problem, all valid questions.+
++Jim++
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Post by terrierlvr on Feb 10, 2008 23:01:01 GMT -5
<<Once I know the dog has a high hunt drive and is obsessed rather than aversive to decomposition, I give the puppy a choice of what it prefers. With the kindler, gentler breeds being developed, I actually give the puppy three choices. >> Jim, what do you consider "kinder/gentler" breeds and if the dog is NOT one of these breeds, do you or would you do something different?
<<A simple maze is created such that wind is moving through the maze. Three articles are in the maze with a used, recently worn article of clothing as the first scent source. On upwind in the maze is antother food source. Farthest upwind in the maze are human remains. The puppy is plopped down outside the maze in a location where I know the scents will be hitting it in the face. After that, it is up to the puppy as to whether it wants to purse the scents or leave.>> Could you give more details on this? How big/long is the maze? Any chance of doing a schematic set up to show this?
<<At five weeks of age, my interest is piqued with any puppy that stays with the HRs longer than 5 seconds. With puppies this age, interest is fleeting. With Tempe, she was in the middle of two sisters. One stayed with HRs for 10 seconds, Tempe for 13 seconds, and one sister stayed with the HRs for 19 seconds. The final tests for these three puppies turned out to be Dax as I was concerned with female vs female dog issues. >>ADT. Jim, geographically, it would be difficult to test dogs at varying ages, when the dogs are not local. Do you have any suggestions, in terms of timing, when an optimum age would be to test a litter? Is 7 or 8 weeks really too late? Bonnie
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Post by oksaradt on Feb 11, 2008 9:02:27 GMT -5
<<<<Once I know the dog has a high hunt drive and is obsessed rather than aversive to decomposition, I give the puppy a choice of what it prefers. With the kindler, gentler breeds being developed, I actually give the puppy three choices. >> Jim, what do you consider "kinder/gentler" breeds and if the dog is NOT one of these breeds, do you or would you do something different?>>>>
++ I was referring to what the bulk of breeders are producing regardless of breed. With Airedales I often hear the term, "It was just too much dog for me.".....i.e. they wanted a user-friendly dog that could read their mind and sit in a corner until the owner was ready for the dog to "turn on". The dogs I like to train and work with would be "too much dog" for most people. Working dogs are high drive, self-starters, obsessed.....and yes, sometimes a major-pain-in-the-rear-end, BUT if you choose well they are being a pain on wanting to WORK. If I give my dogs more than one day off between training sessions or searches then they become much more demostrative in what they consider "quality play time." Many times I see handlers in search that bring "fluffy" to try search because their dog brings them all their long lost socks or is great at finding the kids in the back yard. Give the handler and the dog 20 acres of typical woods to deal with and they both decide that finding socks is just fine. An area search dog (for live) should be like an "explosion waiting to happen" before it is released to search. As this type of dog matures, it learns to control the explosion to a steady roar so it can go farther to make the find. For HRD, you want a dog who appears to pretty much blow you off and every one else around it for what's at the end of its nose. This sort of dog/puppy is can be heard moving about because its nose is going like a Hoover vacuum cleaner in pursuit of something it wants. Right now my puppy has decided that cat poop is just the best delectable treat to find. As my neighbor has lots of feral cats, this is proving to be a challenge for us to work through. The maze basically demonstrates that the puppy is ruled by its nose instead of its eyes at visual obstacles block the scent sources and it has to maneuver around them to get to the "good stuff". The Maze sets the puppy up to make the decision where its priorities lie, live human scent, delectable food, or stinky human remains. The puppy's drive forces it to be honest and removes US from making the decision for it.++
<<<<A simple maze is created such that wind is moving through the maze. Three articles are in the maze with a used, recently worn article of clothing as the first scent source. On upwind in the maze is antother food source. Farthest upwind in the maze are human remains. The puppy is plopped down outside the maze in a location where I know the scents will be hitting it in the face. After that, it is up to the puppy as to whether it wants to purse the scents or leave.>> Could you give more details on this? How big/long is the maze? Any chance of doing a schematic set up to show this?>>>>
++ The maze obstacles should be equivalent to size and age of puppy. With 5-6 week old puppies, I can get away with 5-gallon square buckets(4), placed in a slanted diamond shape such that the scent sources are behind buckets 2, 3, and 4. The obstacles need to be a bit visually imposing on the puppies as these same dogs may need to be searching warehouses where the obstacles might be 40 feet high. If you test older puppies, use bigger boxes. Boxes are convenient as you can fold them flat for traveling. If testing for a live-search dog, I'd actually use a fifth box and put a person in the last box with holes cut out in each box to make them identical and to allow air/scent exchange. The older a puppy is to test, the more complex the maze has to be to present a challenge to the dog. It's all relative. I've tested 16-week old puppies before and used whatever "junk" was available at the breeder as I was testing puppies for another handler on the "spur of the moment". ++
<<<<At five weeks of age, my interest is piqued with any puppy that stays with the HRs longer than 5 seconds. With puppies this age, interest is fleeting. With Tempe, she was in the middle of two sisters. One stayed with HRs for 10 seconds, Tempe for 13 seconds, and one sister stayed with the HRs for 19 seconds. The final tests for these three puppies turned out to be Dax as I was concerned with female vs female dog issues. >>ADT. Jim, geographically, it would be difficult to test dogs at varying ages, when the dogs are not local. Do you have any suggestions, in terms of timing, when an optimum age would be to test a litter? Is 7 or 8 weeks really too late? Bonnie>>>>
FOR ME, 5-6 weeks is best because it means *I* have the most time to utlitize during the puppy's very high learning curve from 4-16 weeks. You'll find many breeders balk at letting a puppy go at this time period for reasons that are justified with most owners. If the handler/trainer isn't familiar with pack ettiquette, bite inhibition, and fear periods then they should wait until 7-8 weeks minimum. I feel a decent handler/trainer should know dog behavior as well or better than any breeder(that doesn't train dogs for work) and certainly better than 99% of the dog owners out there tday. We all have to learn sometime, I started at 4 years old, so I have a leg up on some. Unless you can credibly convince the breeder that you know what you are doing with dog behavior and can demonstrate the type of dog you produce (Dax is my best salesman right now. Tempe was even better), then I feel the breeder is justified in telling you that you need to wait for the puppy until it is at least 7 -8 weeks of age. Testing older puppies you have to change your expectations. At 8 weeks I want to see the puppy staying with my desired scent of interest ...oh 20 seconds minimum. At 12 weeks, a handler I work with tested a dobie puppy that just settled in for a long embrace with skeletal remains he couldn't quite get to through a metal basket. (she pulled the puppy away after 30 minutes as she'd been talking with the breeder most of that time....she likes to talk..)
Geographical limitations.....I have no sympathy for you there. If you want a decent dog to train, you'll go where the dogs are. Alas, I didn't find any decent dogs in my own state and went out to Kansas, Missouri, and Texas. I was prepared to go to Ohio and California if I didn't find any candidate. While I'm ecstatic with Murphy, I really had wanted to drive to California to see Don's puppies and was set up to drive out there 2 weeks later. Dax and Tempe I found in Pueblo, CO. I called that breeder first when Tempe died, but she had retired her dams. The time, driving, and expense is well worth finding a decent puppy to start with as you avoid mountains of frustration that most dog handlers go through trying to force a square dog into a round hole.
Coming away from team trainings where my 20 week old puppy blows away a year old puppy that's been training for 8 months......I can't stress enough that you're best served starting with the right puppy. Oh the one year old dog.....picked out for the handler by a breeder renowned for producing SAR dogs(not an ADT). I know most breeders mean well in trying to put the right dog with the right person, but this is just too important a decision to leave up to someone that doesn't do this sort of work with their dog and isn't your personality. HRD dogs and their handlers must fit together very well because the work can be so intense, laborious, and stressful. The other venues...maybe it's not such a big deal, but ...*sigh* after training the dogs I find, I'll never trust anyone else to give me a working dog for whatever uses. I can guarantee you that you will come up against egos that tell you they know best when it comes to their puppies. Wish them a nice day and move on. You can't force them to let you test their puppies and you don't want to have to deal with them later on down the road when their "pride and joy" can't sniff its way out of a paper bag.
Regards,
Jim Delbridge
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Post by thistlesdale on May 12, 2008 10:44:01 GMT -5
If you want a decent dog to train, you'll go where the dogs are. [ ] The time, driving, and expense is well worth finding a decent puppy to start with as you avoid mountains of frustration that most dog handlers go through trying to force a square dog into a round hole. I know most breeders mean well in trying to put the right dog with the right person, but this is just too important a decision to leave up to someone that doesn't do this sort of work [ ] The other venues...maybe it's not such a big deal, but ...*sigh* after training the dogs I find, I'll never trust anyone else to give me a working dog for whatever uses. I can guarantee you that you will come up against egos that tell you they know best when it comes to their puppies. Wish them a nice day and move on. You can't force them to let you test their puppies and you don't want to have to deal with them later on down the road when their "pride and joy" can't sniff its way out of a paper bag. Duuude! this is phantasmagorical stuff!! From a breeder perspective, in this day & age, producing a pup that goes on to earn an SAR cert is the best endorsement any breeding program can have, IMO. It pays for itself 100x over in terms of culling companion quality animals down the road, because so many pet buyers are in the market for a dog from "proven working lines" nowdays. As far as I'm concerned, SAR Handlers have carte blanche in my kennel, & your money is no good here. Take what you want, & the rest is up to you All I want out of the deal is a photo of the dog wearing his SAR vest for my webpage, if it all works out. If the dog can't work, you can just drop him back off here anytime, day or night, no questions asked. Or give him to another handler, whatever. My name's on the ped, but you're the sole owner of the animal, so that's your call, entirely. The maze obstacles should be equivalent to size and age of puppy. [ ] If you test older puppies, use bigger boxes. Boxes are convenient as you can fold them flat for traveling. If testing for a live-search dog, I'd actually use a fifth box and put a person in the last box with holes cut out in each box to make them identical and to allow air/scent exchange. The older a puppy is to test, the more complex the maze has to be to present a challenge to the dog. Would it be helpful on the breeder's part to have maze equipment stored away on location, for you folks to set up when you come to evaluate a litter?
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Post by oksaradt on May 12, 2008 14:38:24 GMT -5
Would it be helpful on the breeder's part to have maze equipment stored away on location, for you folks to set up when you come to evaluate a litter?
Actually no.
The main reason is this. If I were to use a breeder's maze set up and all the dogs did fantastic, my first inclination is to suspect the puppies have been run through the maze many times already.
This is similar to when doing the "hang" temperment test. Some times when you do this test you find the entire litter just hangs there relaxed. So, of course, I find a non-chalant way to ask the breeder, "ummm, do you carry the puppies around all the time?" "Oh yea? Can you show me how?"
Invariably, it's identical to the hang test. Now, this isn't a bad thing at all. It just invalidates the test as a means to judge the puppy.
As with those breeders that practice "Head Start" with puppy playground equipment...I have no problem with that. It raises the puppy's IQ and improves the dogs eventual agility skills. I'd want to know up front the breeder is doing "Head Start" such that I can adjust my maze accordingly. The point of my maze is to force the puppy to work it in pursuit of the scent it wants to be with more than anything; Thus, the maze is a measure of both their problem solving ability and their obsession with the scent. I want a dog that works the scent I'm interested in despite the obstacles such as my stupidity, crappy weather, crappy terrain, construction equipment running 20 feet away, yada yada yada When I demonstrated Dax working a fresh remains problem this weekend I turned my back on her and ignored her. She went to the source, she started barking, and she didn't stop until I recognized the find because she wanted her recognition of the game. With Murphy, my biggest hurdle is he loves the bones more than he loves any reward I've tried so far; Thus, I have to be creative in placing bones such that he can't quite get to them. So, he barks at me for help in getting the bone. I distract him with my reward, but if the reward doesn't do it for him then he'll leave it and go back to trying to get the bone. Ya just gotta love a dog that obsesses on the scent that much. It's up to me to channel and refine it.
As to your line having a SAR dog...yea, it's a nice feather-in-the-cap.
um....
*chuckle* sometimes not so much having one as a Recovery dog, i.e. nice name for HRD or cadaver dog.
None of my dogs wear vests. I have some nice ones, but have found they hinder the dogs in their work. I only get them out for demos and take them back off when the dog has to work. I trained for a time in disaster where I learned a dog works best naked with nothing hanging on it to catch in the environment.
Hope that answered your queries.
Regards,
Jim
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Post by sarnrse on Oct 14, 2008 7:37:34 GMT -5
Jim, would you go about testing a young adult (12 months) in the same manner with the maze? I would think the puppy test wouldn't reveal much about a one year old. Any suggestions as to what to look for in an older dog.
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Post by oksaradt on Oct 16, 2008 10:45:49 GMT -5
With a 12 month old, you want to ask the breeder first if it's gotten past its recent fear period that can hit from 11-12 months. All the tests would have to be adjusted to accomodate 12 month old, plus I'd probably add checks for aggression to others, to people, I'd hope to have a cat or rabbit near by to see distractability versus obsession with scent.
As for the maze portion, I would still incorporate a maze test because this is 1) to determine the dog's problem solving ability and 2) let the dog choose it's preference in scent it enjoys most. I want the dog that passes the live article and the food for the human remains. (if I was looking for an area search dog, I'd place a child in a small cardboard box at the end and ask it to be as still as possible so the child also becomes a scent source). The maze might take on a different form. I was training with some dogs yesterday with a nice young dobe that has already been imprinted and loves the stuff. Being a puppy, it wants to run everywhere, so I placed a bone in the middle of a bunch of downed utlity poles with cables, electric boxes, etc. but no dangerous obstacles. To get to the scent source, the dogs had to walk the poles, tip toe over them, maneuver through them, etc. Only a dog that loves the scent is going to go through this much trouble as the scent draws them to it regardless of obstacles. This is the difference between an average scent dog and a great one, the dog that goes through crap it normally would avoid because the draw of the scent over rides its annoyance factor.
You can use an abandoned building for this. Due to lots of rain, we had to work in horse stalls for two days. Air flowed under them, but they were all locked. We could maneuver sources into them (or I got to climb up and over), but the dogs couldn't get to the sources. It turned out to be a great set up and would make a phenomenal type of maze. There were lots of alleys with stalls on either side, but open overhead with a roof 50 feet above (or so). There was lots of distractions with road apples, feral cats, a dead possum (supplied by me). We also worked a disaster dog through the area with all our HRs set out and to its credit the dog never paused once at the HRs(which is as it should be).
So, yea, I'd do a maze for a 12 month old, but I'd make it harder to negotiate. All time limits such as hunt drive would have higher expectations. Time obsessed with source would have higher expectations. This age of dog is easier to check for dominance, sociability, etc. so the testing can be looser. I'd maybe consider a tie-out test with a stranger walk-up as well. I might want to see how the young dog does in the back of a truck too.
Hope that helps,
Jim
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