Real birds

[morgan]

We're having a farcas in my training groups for the summer about our ability to shoot live flyers once a week. This seems vital to me, since the pros do it every day.

How often in the off season do you (bird hunting) shoot live flyers over your dogs in training?

Dave in NYC

[ed]

Dave for a few months after season closes you can hunt game farms. I have found quail which are cheap and good fliers do the best for training.After that we sometimes use pigeons.
For water retrieving the ducks are frozen and thawed. Its really a $ thing since you can still get live ducks.

[Maverick]

Also check with your local field trial bird dog clubs. They do a lot of training in the off season on live birds, normally pigeons. I don't think they allow "non-bird dog" breeds to compete in field trails (maybe exhibition only), but around here (Pac. NW) they got special permission to plant and shoot game birds for field trials, and as I recall the entry fee was cheaper than that of a game farm. Plus, you might make some new bird hunting buddies.

[Summit Forge]

Dave,
Around my area the Retriever Clubs shoot live ducks once a month. For Upland, I go to Game Farms for Pheasants and Chukar. If I want to do some Upland training myself, I prefer Chukar, which can usually be bought from an Amish guy in Lancaster. I have bird pens, so I buy what I "think" I need. I had to 2 Chukar "last" for a year before they died of, I guess...STRESS.

Ron

[Summit Forge]

I have had difficulty getting good fliers whether it be quail, chukar or pigeons. For pen raised birds, they need to be flight conditioned before bought and used. The technique used to plant each type of bird also varies to get good a good flush. I have not seen anyone who can get good flushes consistently. Young flight conditioned pheasants seem to be favored by many trainers and clubs. Hal, the pro, likes to "roll in" wild pigeons for certain training goals but one usually needs a helper.
Getting the right birds for flushing training can be a daunting challenge. Retrieving training with ducks presents few problems related to the birds unless the gunners are having a Bad Day.

[morgan]

Hey Ron, lately 'Duff's missed a few flushes. He hunted up the bird, hit heavy cover and put up the bird. His head was down in cover, and he never heard it take wing. He's 9+ and seems to be getting a little deaf. Sort of confounding. Now that it's finally getting cooler, the birds are digging in tighter and I hope this issue becomes moot.

Dave

[phil]

Real Birds, could not help but enter the frey!
In the course of gun dog development,birds are the essential "building block" in finishing out the dogs skills in the field.
Each dog is like a building project. A house, garage or skyscraper.
In course of the project many factors come into play, labor,cost of materials and financing.

Usually I plan 100-125 birds over a18month period of time to properly develop a shooting dog for my self. For a competetion dog add another 25-40 birds.

Thats about 7 birds per month to develop a test dog or shooting dog. Normally started or dogs that have been introduced to gun fire..successfully... get shot flyers 2X's @ month every other week or so. maybe 3 times per month depending on what the situation call for.
So much of the training really.. to development proper running pattern, delivery to hand, and compliance to the whistle is done with clip winged birds or fresh deads.

That number birds stated previously will give some an idea of the cost that they can anticipate 7x's your local bird cost per month.
It is a good rule of thumb.
Field training of gun dogs,test dogs and field trial dogs is by the the most expensive venue in the dog world. what with land costs, tarnsportation and bird costs and possible they assistance of a pro trainer.

Deafness in gun dogs It is pervasive in the sport. Dogs sensitive hearing takes and awful beating from gun fire.. Over the years literally all of our field champions and shooting dogs have some loss if not total loss of hearing. We have 4 retired "warriors" that have served admirally that to vary degrees can not heard the whistle or voice..literally they are all on hand signals even for the most elementary of commands. Me dogs have been used for years at hunt clubs either in the uplands or non-slip situaions and the little darlings just take a beating as far as hearing is concerned

Prime time for hunting is still here No blizzards on the weather map for most us east of the Missi. River.. Get out and have fun

Hal

[Summit Forge]

Dave, I'm not talking about running birds but rather planted birds for training that either cannot or will not fly. Forge catches most of them. I'm sorry to hear about Duff's hearing.

Hal, if you lived closer to me, we would surely use your services for advanced flushing training and bird savvy. I do not think sending the dog to you will work for the dog.

[phil]

Hi Ron,

I understand completely..Please realize I was not trying to grab you or your dog. You have Good contacts in PA. And I'm sure once our National Championships are over that flushing group will start training again. Give my best to Lori

Hal
aka Phil

[Maverick]

summitforge said:

Dave, I'm not talking about running birds but rather planted birds for training that either cannot or will not fly. Forge catches most of them.

Homers are easy and cheap to keep and feed, and can even be kept in the city. You won't find a stronger flyer either. Plus, they will pull in feral pigeons, and with the use of a standard pigeon oneway door, you will have a nearly constant supply of kill birds. You should have a 2 sided coop, so you can transfer the kill birds to the other side before you let the homers out.

If you get adult homers, you have to keep them in the coop until they nest, or they will just wind back up where you bought them! After they are nesting, let them fly by day to stregthen and draw "kill" birds back home. You should have at least 2 to 4 pair of homers to start, but you really don't need more, especially if feral pidgeons are around in good numbers. Cheapest and easiest way to train on live birds!

You do need to learn how to dizzy a pidgeon before planting them though, or they won't stay put long enough to work the dog on them.

- Pete

[Summit Forge]

Forge usually catches planted pigeons before they fly.

[Maverick]

summitforge said:

Forge usually catches planted pigeons before they fly.

Do one or more of the following:
> Don't dizzy them as much.
> Wait longer for the pigeon to recover.
> Plant the pigeon in lighter cover.

This assumes that you are using pigeons that have not been caged for any length of time and are feral (or no-kill homers). If Forge is pouncing on fresh ferals in the cover, which is what it sounds like, one or more of the previous solutions will work. If Forge was catching them in the air, then you have a totally different problem! I have heard of a rare dog on a rare occasion that can do this, and I have been told that some sighthounds, especially Whippets, can do this regularly, even on tight holding wild birds, but I have never seen a dog catch a bird in flight.

The bird dog people usually only worry about weak flying training birds that get up, but then can't fly very far and the dog can chase them down and catch them. That quickly instills the very bad habit of chasing flying birds, which makes the dog less than useful as a hunting companion (bumping birds out of range, running off other birds with the commotion, missing the mark on the bird (or birds!) that rose behind him that you or your buddy dropped, waiting for the dog to return, having to chase the dog down, etc.).

Catching planted hard flying birds on the ground is not a bird or dog problem, it is a bird planter problem!

- Pete

[Summit Forge]

You have told me nothing. Obviously you do not train bird dogs but thanks for the effort Pete.

[Maverick]

summitforge said:

You have told me nothing. Obviously you do not train bird dogs but thanks for the effort Pete.

Ron -

Sorry I couldn't explain the situation well enough. I have had a few GWPs that I bought or bred while I owned Cascade Fast Freight (Boomer) that I did a fair amount of training on with live birds (pigeons, pheasants, bobwhites, and chukar), was President of the local GWP club, was a member of NAVHDA, helped novices train on a number of training days at the Caulkins farm and Sauvie's Island, and planted a variety birds at a few dozen field trials in Oregon and Washington. Although I can't claim my training got Boomer to a perfect score on his first NAVHDA test, nor 2nd in the National GWP Futurity, nor the 2 times he placed in the top 10 GWPs nationally on points, while only being campaigned casually and only locally, beating all breeds in open classes (open to pros), including Elhew Pointers, I do know a little of training bird dogs and have seen and beat some of the great field trial dogs in Boomer's day.

But you are right, I do not currently train bird dogs. The birds and dogs have probably changed considerably in the last 15 or 20 years. Sorry I could not have been of more help.

- Pete

[Summit Forge]

Thanks for that Pete. The bird work for flushing dogs is quite different than for pointers. The flushing guys say, if you screw up your bird work, you will end up with a hesitater, a blinker or a pointer. No offense intended. I love a good pointer but only if it can "hold" PA Ruffed Grouse...they seem to be flushing wild for all dogs these days. Of course that is not much of a problem when hunting with a close working flusher but insurmountable for a good wide ranging pointer that is not bumping his birds.