Airedales and Bird style?

[Wolfer]

Ok queston for you guys that hunt birds with your dales.... What hunt stlye do they Use ?I have Hunted grouse behind flushers and Pointers Phesant Behind pointers and flushers. chukar and quail behing pointers and flushers.Took my meat head out today And damned if he didnt throw a wrench in the gears.. Yes he worked The russian olive groves HARD But I think I lost my Mind . What Hunt style should I expect from a Airedale when he has located?

[markbaldassarre]

Kyle

My dog is a HARD flusher. I have seen him point only once- by accident, simply cause he wasn't sure exactly where the bird was.

By nature he ranges FAR, if you let him.

What exactly did you run into?

[phil]

Hi Guys
Thought I would enter into this style thing.
Under most conditions the started Airedale will flush or attempt to catch birds that may be found on the beat. Generally depending on wind conditions your dale with exhibit a change in body configuration when game is scented.. change in head position..lower or higher. a change in his spinal confirmation..arched or flattened and a change in his gait.. more or less reach in the front legs and more angulation in the rear.

Normaly these cues or reads will not change during the dogs life time unless the dog is taken thru the finishing level of being steady to wing and shot and retrieveing on command..or not sent on the retrieve... depending on the situation

Great care should be taken during the steading process if one "requires" a bold flush. If a "point or hesitation" to flush is amenable then steadying to wing and shot can be done with less care.
As for range Don't let em range far it is a skill that is easy to teach..

Over all the hunting style of the Dale would be close to that of the hunting style of Labs,Goldens and Chessie's in the upland.

Hal

[Summit Forge]

Hal, your training ability and desire to mentor Airedale owners and handlers is most welcome. Forge and I have personally experienced your hospitality and expertise.

Most Airedale folks are not familiar with your reference to "the beat". Please explain "the beat" as it relates to flushing dogs.

[ed]

Wolfer I agree with all thats been said regarding the Flush which seems to be the Airedales inherent MO. I have seen a rare pointing Dale but then again that occurs also in labs with some strains being selected for a point,

My dog flushes hard and gives strong indication by a metronome like tail. The closer he is the faster the twitch.

Steadying is an interesting subject. The dog is called off his drive to capture and made to wait for a release. In VPG(Sch) there is a very similar exercise. The dog hunts for the man the(Revier) and when he finds him he must sit and bark NOT bite with bad guy right in front of him.
As with steadying in the flush, too strong a hand can weaken or create confusion and conflict within the dog. Also like the bird, the bad guy escapes and then may be caught.
Its a delayed gratification for the dog.

Flushing the Bad Guy

[Wolfer]

Ok so I am Losing My Mind....... My meathead does a full fledged Point, I took him out tonight Just to see if it was a FLuke But 3 coveys all Pointed and All held till I crowded him then He Busted them out.. as for being steady to Shot the first 3or 4 shots yesterday he was a tad nervous So i idnt push him and never did a Multi-shot and never Over his direction Usally 90 degrees from his position tonight I never even tried to hit a bird Just worked on gettin him to steady Up Last Point tonight He had that typical Pointer quiver goin On when I usted the birds up he made his grab Iturned 180 and shot and it never Phased Him... and Don Just so Ya dont think Im turning him into a full fledged bird dog we were walking Back to the truck Just befor full Dark and He dove into a Pile Of deadfall and drove to rabbits out.No thought whats so ever to a point just barged right in and pushed them out the back Side. Ill be goin back out this weekend and see if I can get pics of Him pointing..

[phil]

Sorry for using terminology that might be confusing..
"the beat" is nothing more than the area of ground that me dog and I are hunting.. It is British terminolgy..
Considering that most of our flushing dog experience in this country comes from the UK many spaniel folks use such terminology.. i.e:
USA:
duck blind would be referred to as "The Hide"
Great mark on a long retrieve.. "Spot-on"

Dales are hunted and tested in the uplands...Flushing and or pointing is acceptable in either case. I have seen as many Dales point or hesitate to flush as I have flush boldly..
The "Steading process" is one that is developed over time..Some of my own spaniels we plan in the training process to use any where between 3-9 months and somewhere around 75-100 training birds... In the process many birds are allowed to simply fly away.. The command of "hie-lost" or "gone away" is taught at this stage. Normally we would give a dog about 1 retrieve out 3 birds flushed... ( As some of know Madonna has gone thru this very program) And on some birds (tight sitting birds on the nest) she will "point"..Rather stylish I might add...On runners she will absolutely blow them out and "slam" her butt on the ground..
This reaction of her's is not unlike that of many flushing retrieving brreeds that I have developed

For most hunting folks the steading process is way to much time and investment.. Just look at the numbers..i can safely say there are less than 1% of all hunting dogs that are given the opportuntity to show case their true talents..
Always remember that when you are out for a day of sport with dog.. YOU are the judge and jury....And it really is mind OVER matter!!! If you don not mind it does not matter!!!! ONLY when your dog consistently causes problems on a hunt and it is No fun watching birds flushed out of gun range or retrieves not being completed
However when you enter the test/or trial venue and independant panell of judges will decide if your dog is proper Then this form of advanced training is mandatory...After all It would not be very exciting for people to go all the way to OHIO every March just to run in the Junior hunt test year after year.

May the wind be in your favor! Keep your powder dry.

Hal

[danwolf]

wolfer said:

Ok so I am Losing My Mind....... My meathead does a full fledged Point, I took him out tonight Just to see if it was a FLuke But 3 coveys all Pointed and All held till I crowded him then He Busted them out.. as for being steady to Shot the first 3or 4 shots yesterday he was a tad nervous So i idnt push him and never did a Multi-shot and never Over his direction Usally 90 degrees from his position tonight I never even tried to hit a bird Just worked on gettin him to steady Up Last Point tonight He had that typical Pointer quiver goin On when I usted the birds up he made his grab Iturned 180 and shot and it never Phased Him... and Don Just so Ya dont think Im turning him into a full fledged bird dog we were walking Back to the truck Just befor full Dark and He dove into a Pile Of deadfall and drove to rabbits out.No thought whats so ever to a point just barged right in and pushed them out the back Side. Ill be goin back out this weekend and see if I can get pics of Him pointing..

Wolfer,
That is great! I love it, that is exactly how Apache hunts, or started. ;D
Those High Country's can cover ground so quickly, mine range for fur at 100 yds ahead, so I find that pointing trait fabulous. ;D

When Apache started pointing, I was the happiest sob hunter ever that day. No more hoarse throated races through thick cover w/him on the hot trail of a running pheasant, scattering the planted quail everywhere.

When I first started hunting him, I would plant 5-6 pheasant, 5-6 chukar,- a good 1-2 hour hunt- about 3 mile walk.
But Apache gets intoxicated by running pheasant, he will bound up over the cover like a whitetail looking for that runner,- it's cool to watch but, it was throwing the other birds everywhere, and I didn't want to damp his drive either- so I just started getting chukar planted mostly and maybe 2 pheasant planted in a final far fields, plus planted pheasant run like hellions rather than fly.

But looking back it made him alot stronger hunter because we would then hunt those scattered birds further, wider, craftier, and harder. So I'm glad I didn't go to quail exclusively for months, but quail he'll point 9 out of 10, if they are holding. ;D
He's also nabbed a few flushers out of the air.

Wolfer, PA doesn't have any wild pheasant or quail, another epic blunder of agicultural and game mgt, all we need are less chemicals and real hedgerows...

I love the pointing trait for PA tight cover and the rare shot at a wild grouse, etc. For a wide ranging dog I love it.

Phil,
Any pointers on controlling range?

cheers,
dw

[phil]

"pointers on range control"

THE INDUCEMENT METHOD

1. Strong Retrieve a must starting range control before the retrieve is well grounded is getting the "cart before the horse"

2. Never pre-plant training birds That will come later in the dogs development.
3. You will need an assistant spaced about 25 yards off your left or right shoulders
4. Train either into the wind or at best a cross wind.
5. With dog sitting in front,facing of the handler send your in the direction of your assistant, who by the way is teaseing the dog with a freshly killed or clipped wing bird. As the dog approaches the assistant the handle would blow his whistle twice..as we say in spaniel land "2pips to turn" When the dog responds to the whistle and comes back across toward the handler, the handle would now tease or throw a dead or clip wing bird so as to give the dog an inducement for coming back. This process would continue back and forth down the training field for say 100-200 yards. Handler and assitant stay even with each other about 25 yrs aprt.l Dog would have the opportunity to have 5-6 contacts with a dead or clipped wing bird and at the same time begin to understand that the whistle ..means bird. Also here is the amazing part the dog is coming into contact with birds close to YOU. not out in hells back acre. ( 2-3 sessions for most flushing retrievers)
As dog becomes confident and is responding well to whistle live flyers can be rolled in when the dog is questing away from either handler or assistant.
6.After the retrieve is developed this type of work and variations of it are the real foundations of teaching a flushing-retriever to stay in range. The steading process cements the whole concept for the dog

Thou in this format I have probable raised more questions than I have answered.. Just not enough time or space to write a book!!

May the wind be your favor

Hal aka "phil"

[frankyme]

Thanks for the pointers Hal. My wife is going to be pissed she has to handle a clip winged bird though ;D. On the initial cast to the assistant does the assistant toss the bird when the dog comes or put it back in her pocket and I toss a bird only when Teddy responds to the whistle and gets close to me? I'm assuming once he gives me the bird I thank him QUIETLY Does the assistant ever get to be the shooter? Or is that lesson 2?

[phil]

Frankie YES as the training in range and control progresses your assistant would be a gun and help with the shooting chores...just like saw you witnesses here, in August... Guns play an invaluble roll in this whole process. Proper shooting can really improve your pups development and the down side improper gunning can really mess you up...And I'm not referring to when a gun misses a bird.. It is more of the when and where that you get a shot than if you get a shot..An old adage around here is "We would rather have a bird missed at 40 yrds than killed at 20"..
And rule really does apply in developing a great dog for sport

Concerning the tossing of birds you and your helper should alternate as you move down thru your training area.. your dog should find a bird on the left side of the beat and then on the right side.. thus he will be successful at quartering the beat.
I agree with you that throwing retrieves after a whistle is good. however this drill allows the dog to use his nose and find birds that he has not planted..We are at the stage where we are rolling birds in when the dogster is not watching but yet he is moving once the bird is in then a turn whistle is to bring him back into the nest where are "target" bird is waiting to be found..

Have Fun!

Hal aka Phil