Trained Hold

[frankyme]

So I've decided that I'm sick of picking up birds that Teddy drops at my feet and since I can't train in the field during nesting season I thought it would be great opportunity to train him to hold and then a trained retrieve. I've never done this before and I'm looking for constructive criticism of my method so I'm video taping progression. I video taped for 1 minute, but the training session was about five minutes:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_qRfjKRW7w

As for technique I bought a video about training flushers and I've found this description on ducks unlimited:
www.ducks.org/Hunting/RetrieverTraining/101/DeliverytoHandPartII.html
They both say about the same thing.

Things to know about Teddy and me. He's a natural retriever and loves birds more than breathing. He gets bored easy retieving things that wern't once alive. All of our training dummies have wings tied to them. I don't plan to let him get a hold of a bird or dummy until he can hold a dowel for as long I want him to. He is 14 months old. I'm planning to use only positive reinforcement

When watching the video you will notice the first time I give him the dowel he rolls it in his mouth with his tongue. I'm doing my best to keep it in his mouth gently. I could hold his mouth shut but was afraid of pinching his tongue or lip so I thought letting him roll it was the better choice The hand you can't see is massaging behind his ears and the other is under his mouth trying to keep it closed. When I know he's about to spit the dowel I ask him to give. I figured it was better than just letting him drop it. Is that right?
The second hold goes a little smoother and I barely have hold his chin, I'm just scratching it.
I'm using his grooming table as a bench, he gets a food reward and love once on the table before we start and the again after we're done. I'll lengthen the sessions as we progress.

Again, looking for constructive criticism especially if I'm doing something completely wrong.

Thanks,
Frank

[morgan]

<<The hand you can't see is massaging behind his ears and the other is under his mouth trying to keep it closed. When I know he's about to spit the dowel I ask him to give. I figured it was better than just letting him drop it. Is that right?>>

Constructively, you're not teaching him to hold, you're actually helping him instead. Since you appear to be asking for advice, I'll offer some:

I know lots of enthusiastic and high energy retrievers. I don't know any who aren't force fetched. Essentially, the process involves teaching the dog a specific, conditioned negative reinforcement. Koehler's "Open Obedience" book has an easy to follow procedure. When you say he gets bored easily retrieving things that weren't once alive, you're describing a dog that fetches in prey drive (for lack of an easier terminology). If you put pressure on the fetch he'll do it because he has to, not because he wants to. He'll still grab up stuff he wants to grab up, but he'll also grab up stuff he dosen't want to because you tell him to fetch it.

As a function of the prey sequence, dogs fetch because they eat in the den, not "al fresco". An obsessive retriever is sticky; he wants to own the game. When we train retrieving, we have the fetch part automatic and train the technical problems. So I think you gotta force fetch, but I'll offer an interum step:

Try tossing something you know he'll fetch and just walking away. Don't say anything. Don't do anything. Toss-turn and walk. Watch what he does and write back. I won't prejudice the experiment.

Dave in NYC

[frankyme]

morgan said:

Try tossing something you know he'll fetch and just walking away. Don't say anything. Don't do anything. Toss-turn and walk. Watch what he does and write back. I won't prejudice the experiment.

Dave in NYC

He healed carrying the dummy. After ten yards I reached down and he gave it to me, I patted his head and said, "good boy"

[frankyme]

So I think you gotta force fetch.

Dave in NYC

The book I have, the video, the ducks unlimited website guy, and the Bird dog trainer that I can't afford to take Teddy back to all recommend trying positive reinforcement first. The quote from the DU website, Mike Stewart, Wildrose Kennels, is:
"Positive reinforcement for results, no matter how small, is far more effective that the application of force for long-term compliance."

The problem with the video I've got is that they show a finished or nearly finished dog as the example. And then say things like, "Your dog might not accept the dowel this easy."
The video first had a dog that supposedly did not go through force fetch. He readily accepted the dowel and held it. The whole time his tail was up and he appeared to be enjoying doing what was asked of him. They talked through the progression to field work.
After the explanation, "you might need to use pain stimulus if you can't get the dog to take the dowel..." They had a lab on the bench. And demonstrated the toe pinch. The dog also did what was asked of it. The entire time its ears were pinned back, tail tucked between its legs; the dog looked miserable. Even after the pain stimulus was completely removed and the dog was on the ground demonstrating what it learned it still looked timid and scared.
I appreciate your opinion and respect the fact you have much more experience than me, but I'm not ready to give up on using positive reinforcement. Any advice you can give me through my positive reinforcement project will be greatly appreciated. If the time comes when I decide to use pain stimulus to force behavior I won't complain if you say, "I told you so!" ;D

Frank

[morgan]

I won't say I told you so. A timid sacred dog, is a timid scared dog, whatever. Two most common force fetch reactions are 1) lock jaw (pinch away, I'll just wait) and 2) bite handler. Remember, if you teach a dog to handle pressure, you can always remove the pressure. If you don't, you may not understand when you see their pressure reaction. I screw up a lot, but I usually figure out what I'm doing wrong in a week or so. What follows is the advice of a fool:

Next phase, you need a helper. Lots of dogs will pick up what you throw. You need to up the ante so that he'll pick up what I throw, then a "dead bird" that you he never saw fall. Assume that the dog will sit on a whistle and come in on two (without fail). If not-do that for two weeks with the first execise, if so, do this:

Hold the dog on a long line, short up. Have a helper quack, shoot and throw a bumper. Throw 45 degree angled back (so dog must go past gunner) and have helper about 30 yds out. When the dog gives the little "I want it hitch" count to 3 and release him on his name. Use his name because he wants to, and it will save confusion when we go hunting together and everybody else is yellin fetch. Wait for 3 so the dog takes the picture before going.

Dog runs out and grabs the bumper and you turn and walk away (toot-toot) hitching up the lead. Turn the dog to face the helper and have him repeat on the other 45 degree angle (side). Repeat as before but, very important, do not take the held bumper until the dog releases. He has to hold until you say, give-Teddy. If he drops the bumper at any time before, you sit him-make him hold (ah there's the rub) and go fetch it yourself. Done for this time out.

Lots of English trainers use low pressure, but they pick up lots of bumpers. This is negative punishment for all you behaviorists. The ear pinch is negative reinforcement (cause you let up with compliance) and becomes positive punishment (like smackin him) when you need to use it in the field. Either way, you are teaching a consequence for incorrect behavior, ie: ever, ever dropping anything except into your hand.

If this works great do it for a week. Then add walking singles for marking practice in the same format. Helper throws 45 degree right angled back. When you turn with dog and bumper helper has walked to the place where the bumper landed and throws 45 degree angled left back. Do this eight times and quit. Never test the dog. Always have the dog quit on success. For a no negative pressure method to work it has to be absolutely consistent and successful, cause you've got no way to fix a problem or help the fetch.

BTW, the hold on the next throw deal sets up doubles and teaches hold attached to sit, so you're not goin' hold, hold, hold like an idiot. Sit means, sit/hold it/watch the action, all at once. The "pain to force the behavior" deal is a misnomer. We're actually teaching a conditioned negative that we use as a tool later. You're just deciding to give up that tool, or maybe not add it until later.

Dave in NYC

[morgan]

The guy who figured out the lather-rinse-repeat on the shampoo bottle first sold lots more shampoo. That repeat thing is the deal, but don't use the whole bottle everytime you wash your hair. or 500 IUs of Vitamin C is an antioxident, 5000 IUs a kidney stone.

Dave

[phil]

Frankie,
The mechanics of the trained retrieve are simple in theory,though complicated in reality.
I remember having some e-mail interchange with you about pigeon traps some time ago. However I failed to save your e-mail
address. If you could e-mail me at .... [e-mail]
I would like to send you some information on this subject. Really to much to send on this thread....

Some of the issues that you are up against were caused from having to much fun hunting Teddy before he was conditioned well in this area of retrieveing. Donot feel bad about this. My client list is filled with good people and their dogs that have been right where you are with Teddy now! It is a huge part of my business in training all breeds of hunting,testing ,trialing dogs. Hunting,questing ,searching are very stimulating activities for dog and man. And canines really derive pleasure from the process. Retrieveing is WORK. And unless dog has been has bonded to his WORK, there will always be war in this area.

Remember this the "mind over matter" area of dog ownership...If you do not mind it does not matter. However with out a trained retrieve you will always have a nice running,exciting "swamp collie" Without the trained retrieve you will no longer be able to advance in the testing process as an upland dog or retriever dog.
If you are passionate about this subject send me your email address..if not well best of fortunes to you and yours

Hal Standish
Justamuc Gundog Training Center
Three Rivers,Mi
269-279-5747
[e-mail]

[frankyme]

Thanks for the advice Michael.
Teddy is currently off the bench "taking" and "holding" the dowel. My next planned step is to have him heal with it in his mouth, then I'll "sit" him and have him "come" with it. Sitting in front of me. That should set up the retireve. Then the retreives. After that I will be introduce other objects. Do you think I should be introducing other objects before that? I was thinking that I didn't want him to stress over real birds or even training dummies. Let the stressfull learning happen with the dowel, PVC pipe ect. and when he is doing those happily introduce dummies and finally birds. Keep in mind he's been retrieving birds since 5 months old he just been dropping them at my feet.
I did the "fetch-in-the-chute" when he was younger however I didn't have a name for it. I also added duck scent and we played hide and seek the bumper from 8-10 months old because he had a leg injury and I kept him out of the field. He did blind retrieves from the living room to the under the bed and behind the toilet ;D

[frankyme]

;DDone
Teddy is now to the point where retrieving is fun again for him! For a while there it was "work" he did only because he had to. it was starting to scare me a bit. But I started taking him out on the front lawn before I left work in the morning and he started to look forward to the extra time with me. Just a few tosses and I left with him wanting more. We've been going to a local pond to beat the heat. I had to talk him into getting it after the first throw. It was funny really he would be geeked to get out in the water, swam hard, but as soon as he turned around and saw me standing there he would slow up with a look off dread on his face. He hated the fact that he had to bring the dummy right back to me and sit there and wait for me to take it from him. Not yesterday though, he spun around swam hard and actually ran through the water once it was shallow enough. We worked on blind retrieves on land after the water and he ran them back and screeched to a halt in front of me it was great.
Next step steady to shot and wing.