Prey drive v defense drive

[melanie]

At the risk of being made a fool because of my inexperience with Schutzhund, and to put out something other newbies to the sport might want to know, I'd like to present a thought/question.

How does prey drive differ from defense drive?

A little about Iko. He's maturing nicely. I love him!

Iko perceives prey as fun - critters, toys, etc. I see great natural defense in him for me, but I can't say because I don't know how personal protection relates to the "style" of Sch. Iko uses his body to fight, his legs to grab, claws to dig into flesh, and I'm trying to teach him a full bite because he is a snapper/nipper. And with certain triggers (words, like "critter" or "rats") you have to watch your face, going at faces might be an Iko trait??? Iko is a very good people dog, Don't get me wrong, he's never gone for anyone's face! I just learned by the hair of a tooth not to say certain words, in close proximity, as he jumps up and snaps. I'm 5'3 so when he does that, i smell his breath! He sure can jump! It's only vicious for the critter...

Seems he would prefer a few minutes with a sleeve instead of being tied out and lured with "prey". He really doesn't respond to being tied. I think he thinks hitting the end of the line isn't much fun, but that's just me thinking! I've got him gripping a towel wrapped around my arm pretty well and want to transfer that to our helper now. I think he's played the game with me enough and is conflicted about biting mom. (I play ROUGH at this game, and I don't mean "girl" rough.)

Is the tie out step necessary in a bigger picture that I haven't seen yet?

Should I get an actual sleeve and help him myself outside of club training?

To this point, protection work of any sort hasn't turned him on. Iko is 2-3/4. But I see (or wish for) glimpses.

We're not ready for our B this fall as hoped, got caught up in moving and changing jobs. But my TD and our helper are working on defense, and this week we are doing it here on my front yard Schutzhund field at dusk. They want the dogs to start experiencing defense work at dusk in a different place. I'll let you know how that shakes out.


Lastly, can I use the command "vorats"? ;D

Thanks. If you can't respond to my ignorance in a kinder and gentler manner, please don't bother.

Sincerely



[glow=red,2,300]Mel[/glow]

[lacypsa]

Both prey and defense drives are instinctual motivators that facilitate survival. Prey is the dog's urge to chase a prey object. In the wild it would be a rabbit or something, on the SchH field it is a bite sleeve. The proverbial rabbit can be replaced by any stimulus/object combination that triggers this urge.
Defense is simply a fowardly aggressive response to a threatening stimulus. The fight part of fight or flight.

You could sit with two world level judges and witness 1 dog in a gaurd and both may offer completely different opinions about the dogs drives. It takes quite a bit of experience to manipulate these drives in order to get a desired response from the dog . I would definately recomend trying to find an experienced helper.

Leerburg (as much as I hate to pimp this stuff) has a pretty decent video on puppy bite work that and begining SchH. If you type Leerburg into any search engine it will be at the top of the list. Also Ivan Balabanov has a book that can be found at his website. otvitosha.com, I also highly recomend his DVD series Obedience Without Conflict (I don't mind pimping his stuff)

Good luck

[melanie]

Thanks for your *kind and gentle* replies.

I have Ivan's Obedience without Conflict, DVD, but honestly, with this move I haven't had a chance to watch it.

Michael, thanks for the validation that Airedales and GSDs do not respond the same ways.

And I think I'm learning that the helper is as critical to successful training as the trainer her/himself. Our TD and helper went to a seminar where Dave was certified as a Helper. TD didn't make it, made helper error.

Dave has been trying with Iko for a long time, and if Iko responds to anyone, it's Dave. The poor man is exhausted by Iko.

Iko does give the desired behavior when you add aggressive
voice.

Food for thought, I use what feels right for me and Iko, we're a team, and even if he is slow with the protection work, as I have watched, I just feel he'd respond to a different approach, but our club is strictly Dildei and I can't get them to open up thoughtful options.

We have 2 mals, bunches of GSDs, one dobe and Iko. Airedales are very different, though my club argues otherwise. They really do want to see Iko and I succeed, they're great folks. Maybe not the top notch Schutzhund club in the world, but we have good chemistry with our members and we have fun.

Mel

[melanie]

michaeldelee said:

OOOH, a TD that can't pass helper school? You may want to get involved with another group, Mel. There are differences that are obvious when the dogs are worked and anyone can see that is so. If noise (voice) aggression works on the dog you have a good place to start. You can couple the voice with a schlage or a whip or any kind of noise maker or visual stimulus to broaden the dogs responses to stimuli and the limit is your imagination. Discuss it with your helper and know in advance what he is going to do so that you can be helpful to the dog when it is stressed by the new stimulus. Dogs learn aggression quickly so don't get stuck on a pattern or routine. As soon as the dogs responds aggressively to a new stimulus change and add in a new one with a recognized one until the dog is responding without the voice being used...ie Voice and shaking rag> aggression, then voice and schlage>aggression, then
schlage and hissing (as opposed to shouts or growls)...mix it up keep it interesting and use different decoys as much as possible including women. Your ultimate goal is for the dog, when working, to respond with aggression, growling or barking, to the silent approach of a human
which is moving naturally, normally. When the dog gets to that point, then the neutral stranger whips out a sleeve hidden in the bushes or any convenient spot and fights the dog to reinforce in the dog that it's judgement was correct and that the stranger should have been aggressed. Sounds like he is getting it.

Thanks, Michael!



[glow=red,2,300]Mel[/glow]