jesse
Hunter/worker
Posts: 55
|
Post by jesse on Sept 11, 2007 21:46:34 GMT -5
While watching Eve grow a couple of things have become apparent to me. First off the difference in how the "Airedale" is put together. In this comparison American vs German. My preference is still the american build, having said that I can see what is so appealing about the german lines. The German dales have a vary stiff gait, still quick and agile, just not fluid. As said in past posts the american/hunting lines have a longer body and a easy gait. Witch imbues a agility that cant be matched my the German/show dales ive seen. Thats not to say the german ones are slouches but just not as flexible. Comes from the squareness. Ive seen the hunting lines do acrobatics that thus far ive only seen mals do. As far as the temperament goes ive decided the key factor (at least for dales) is the obsessive compulsive trait. Others call it drive, but i think its goes a little narrower than that, otherwise all the american lines would be great schutzhund dogs too. The germans have tapped into this trait and fine tuned it to the point of having dogs with OCD. Not a bad thing in my opinion (see photos in previous post.) Unfortunately i think its linked with the small terrier build and temperament. I wonder if crossing a german dog to an american dog would cancel the progress made on each side or if it would be a half and half litter. One thing i will say about the german dog i have. In some instances she doesnt have the brains god gave a nat. she likes to challenge my 80 pound bitch with her 25 pound growl. (oh yeh did i mention she makes sure shes safely surrounded my her crate)
|
|
jesse
Hunter/worker
Posts: 55
|
Post by jesse on Sept 11, 2007 21:47:35 GMT -5
Any thoughts on the subject or did i just reinvent the wheel
|
|
|
Post by hicntry on Sept 11, 2007 22:23:21 GMT -5
"As said in past posts the american/hunting lines have a longer body and a easy gait. Witch imbues a agility that cant be matched my the German/show dales ive seen. Thats not to say the german ones are slouches but just not as flexible. Comes from the squareness. Ive seen the hunting lines do acrobatics that thus far ive only seen mals do. "
Ssshhh. The purists will accuse you of blasphemy. LOL. You know I agree and it has to due with the standard. Now when you are talking about the size having something to do with the temperament, it sounds like you may be saying the smaller dogs tend to have little dog syndrome. I think so. Bigger dogs are just, or appear to be easier going most of the time....until you put something in front of them that blows the adrenaline over the top. Many of the smaller dogs seem to have an adrenaline boost most of the time...but it isn't set in stone going either way. It is just an "odds are" type of thing I think.
|
|
|
Post by hicntry on Sept 11, 2007 22:26:10 GMT -5
By the way Jessie, as far as that OCD. The big dogs could hang like that to....ya just can't hold em up. ;D ;D
|
|
jesse
Hunter/worker
Posts: 55
|
Post by jesse on Sept 11, 2007 23:43:06 GMT -5
Too true 95 pounds is just not the same as 25 pounds
|
|
jesse
Hunter/worker
Posts: 55
|
Post by jesse on Sept 11, 2007 23:54:37 GMT -5
It seems that the two dominate types now in evidence are the "hound" type ie large and the "terrier" type ie small each going separate ways. Both are hunters so the basic type will prevail in the end but how different are we going to end up.
Ive encountered the same thing with my big males. Nothing moves them till something ( sometimes unknown to me) makes them mad and then they can move with the best of them. The bigger they are, it seems, the longer the fuse too. I dont have a comparison yet for the smaller ones, give me a year or so and itll be interesting to see if the "fuse" is in direct comparsen to the size of the dog.
|
|
AlexZ
Hunter/worker
Come a little closer...
Posts: 147
|
Post by AlexZ on Sept 12, 2007 13:07:02 GMT -5
Very true. I was afraid to put a name on it, but I think OCD is a good name for it. The one OCD I have is not a small one by AKC standards, he is 65 lbs, but he is a small one in my pack. He and another smaller (62lbs) one have very short fuses. The bigger two are "cooler" and will wait longer to blow the fuse, but when they do... I think it comes from bigger dogs being more confident, and not doing as much of a preemptive strike as the smaller ones. Less posturing, too. They wait till something comes and really threatens them, I guess.
About hounds and terriers. What are the defining properties to consider a dog to be more of a terrier vs. a hound? Besides the size.
|
|
|
Post by markbaldassarre on Sept 12, 2007 21:14:31 GMT -5
When you guys say OCD do you mean things like toy fixation or desire to do stupid sh!t all day long like you see in the herders & some other working breeds?
For example; my dobe will run with my dirt bike in my field all day long at mach speed right at my side. Where the dale seems to know it's a redundant waste of time.
This is by no means a lack of energy or drive, cause he'll run like you wouldn't believe along the truck in areas he hasn't become bored with. As long as he hasn't learned that the activity is repetitious nonsense, he'll do it all day long. He's nutz for a frisbee but isn't into it so much that he'll compete against the dobe in a race for it more than a couple times. He'd rather wait his turn and go all out for it. Definitely has an on/off switch, but when it's on, it's on!
|
|
|
Post by hicntry on Sept 12, 2007 22:56:44 GMT -5
"When you guys say OCD do you mean things like toy fixation or desire to do stupid sh!t all day long like you see in the herders & some other working breeds?"
Beats the heck out of me Mark. I never hear terms like this from hunters and I am sure all these houndsmen never heard the terms used today. Today, the dogs are psychoanalized to the point only a few of them do what they are supposed to do. Surprizingly enough, before all these terms, it was a simple matter of the dog does a certain thing, or he doesn't. Kind of likesome people can pole vault and some can't....some can be doctors, some can't. Maybe it has to do with OCD. Or maybe the ones that can't, just didn't get enough drive building.
|
|
|
Post by markbaldassarre on Sept 12, 2007 23:41:39 GMT -5
Don
They're talking about OCD as in {obsessive compulsive disorder} if you didn't recognize the acronym. I don't think they mean it literally though. Some dogs get "obsessed" w/ toys or activities. I think a strong hunting dog could be labeled as having OCD. In the context I'm speaking, there is no "disorder", just very strong desire.
|
|
AlexZ
Hunter/worker
Come a little closer...
Posts: 147
|
Post by AlexZ on Sept 13, 2007 0:12:20 GMT -5
I agree, word "disorder" probably does not belong in the term describing dogs with extra drive for this kind of work, but it is definitely "obsessive-compulsive" part that makes it appear that it's close to the human definition of OCD.
|
|
AlexZ
Hunter/worker
Come a little closer...
Posts: 147
|
Post by AlexZ on Sept 13, 2007 0:32:31 GMT -5
before all these terms, it was a simple matter of the dog does a certain thing, or he doesn't. Exactly. Going further, there some that do it well and visibly enjoy it, and then there are some that once they get to do it, they do not notice anything around them and don't stop until they are DONE... For example - Ringo - he will find the track, run it with the foam in his beard, bark at the game in the tree until I find him... Once I am there, I can call him off and after few commands he will get to me. He sees me, hears me, acknowledges my presence. He is definitely "doing it" and having a ball. Another one (OCD), Monty - does the same thing, but silently, until the game can't escape, then he barks. The bigger difference is that I can't call him off or even use zapper to have him let go of anything he catches or trees. I have to get hold of him to have him let go. He is extremely well trained in obedience, voice, hand, body language commands. One "activity" triggers the obsession and it is hard to make him acknowledge anything else. I am sure there are some parallels in the protection sport, where certain "activities" trigger strongest will to bite/hold, etc. Jesse - is this close to what you observe?
|
|
|
Post by hicntry on Sept 13, 2007 3:36:34 GMT -5
I know what obsessive compulsive is and agree, the disorder is out of place. But, I was just commenting on the analytical dissection of the dogs behavior today. I am used to something more along the lines of " Man, that little gyp is a hunting machine" or something very similar. Just from the statement I know that the dog is at the upper end when it comes to hunting because if it weren't the same fellow may say "You want that little gyp? She will make dog if you work her". Past that, there is no dog to talk about. To me all these terms really clutter up the landscape unnecessarily and in the end, don't mean much...the dogs gt it or it hasn't got it. Breeding has gotten to be much the same way. Little has to do with breeding. It is more a science of producing puppies. People seem to think the more scientific terms they know means they will produce better pups. Like the better they understand the dogs individual personality and classify each part, the better manwork that dog will do. The dog has to have it first. ;D Am I ramblin or just remembering simpler times when dogs were dogs.
|
|
|
Post by ed on Sept 13, 2007 13:47:02 GMT -5
Don "Man, that little gyp is a hunting machine" keeps it simple. Problem is in working dogs there are a lot of "Guru" seminars. Each Guru has to have his own gig to warrant the seminar fee. Yah this is cynical but you don't need a theory to understand the pics of Jesse's pup. workingairedale.proboards78.com/index.cgi?board=manwork&action=display&thread=1189559927What do we know? We know she isn't going to need months and years of "bite building" to compete. She won't require a special trainer who works Airedales to bring her out. Ive seen her and she has a lot of horsepower and needs a steady hand so she doesn't become a bad girl. She probably isn't a good candidate for a pet home. Will she hunt thats another question. My experience with a similiar dog is that he hunts cause he wants to catch stuff. Drive or whatever you want to call it is in the dog. As I was told many years ago by a famous trainer.you can always train a high dog down but its a waste of time and money trying to bring a low dog up.
|
|
|
Post by hicntry on Sept 13, 2007 17:28:42 GMT -5
"Yah this is cynical but you don't need a theory to understand the pics of Jesse's pup."
Presicely my point Ed. I don't care what fancy terminolgy is used to confuse the issue today....you need to look no farther than the dog. If the pictures depiucted a 6 mo old dog backing away from Jessie, I can hear the comments. "Well there is a lack of OCD, but, there are exercises to teach her to focus and then, she could use some drive building because she has none. Yep, it'll take some time....and money but, we can make her passable."
The world has changed and is willing to pay for "passable" because its my dog and I luv her/him. Hey, Im have no problem with that, look in the crystal ball though, you got a pet. Nice pet but, on the other hand.... "got her/him for half price form a friend of a friend and was I lucky....she/he was the last one they had left. I almost missed out." In other words, my suggestion to people is look at the dog....it is or it isn't...no in betweens. If you are not sure, it is an isn't. I am picking at terminology and the place it takes today. I am not picking at it because Jessie used it because I found his comparison very interesting along with Marks comments and Alex's examples depicting both extremes. Good thread. Trainers are masters of curious terminology, breeders are right behind them. Breeders throw scientific terms around in discussions like they are a dime a dozen. Many are not sure what those terms are. Homozygous, heterozygous and on and on. They are just words to 95 % of the people, like training terms. They are just words until you actually see it. Even terms used in breeding, you keep hearing them but they are just words...and they will stay just words until you see a dog that has it. You will know what that word means at that point. What good has that word been up to the time you saw the perfect example of it in a specific dog? Not much. Homozygosity, breeders pick litters apart looking for it but, they don't have to. The first time you lay your eyes on a highly homozygous litter of pups, you know from that moment on what it really means. Just watch the dog.
|
|