Choosing a SAR candidate

[oksaradt]

Don asked me to pontificate in here, so be it. I tend to work off of three different computers and I'll post later what I look for in a puppy for human remains detection. I simply don't want to have to retype it again.

I've been in Search and Rescue for over 10 years now. I'm told the burn-out tends to be 8 years, so that would make me a hard case. I've been specializing in training my dogs in recovery work for 8.5 years now. When I got into SAR, I lurked on the existing SAR lists for about six months. I got the popular books at the time. I joined a SAR group without a dog and observed for 3 months before considering a dog. At that time I was torn between Mals and ADTs. People told me I was crazy as every one knows how hard ADTs are to train. I've been training dogs in one vein or another for 20 years, helping out with the local obedience club, sneaking into the veterinarian canine behavior seminars my wife was attending, etc. I researched both breeds and wanted an ADT because I wanted a "go to earth dog" and a thinking dog. I'd had a GSD and found them too easy to please me. I need a dog that can "give me the finger" when they are on scent and I "don't have a clue."

SAR dogs have to be civilized around people because SAR groups do demos to make it known to law enforcement, fire departments, the authorities, etc. that we exist. The group I belong to expects all canine members to have CGCs before they can do demos.

I got into recovery work because of my first ADT, Dax. When I started, the dogs were to be jack-of-all-trades dogs, tracking, trailing, air scent, and some cadaver. Dax did a 1/2 mile blind trail at one time (1 hour old, nothing major). At about 18 months, we attended a seminar to introduce human remains to your area search dog. Dax took to it right off, so much so that privately each of the instructors came up to me quietly and told me that my dog should specialize in cadaver work. I went through three months of soul searching as my dog had been labeled as a "ghoul". I set up all sorts of experiments to prove to myself that my dog really didn't give a crap about finding the live person if dead stuff was out there. From then on, I never looked back. I found that I enjoy this type of work. I enjoy working with law enforcement. I enjoy bringing closure to the victim's loved ones. I enjoy solving the puzzle. I enjoyed it so much that when my plant closed that I went back to school to get a masters in forensic science. During this time I took a course called "Death Investigation" which was taught by the state medical examiner. We got to talking and over time I found out that an opening where I live was coming up. So, I applied and I've been an investigator for OCME for almost 2 years now, sometimes using my dogs as needed to aid in recovery work.

Now, when I picked Dax out, I used testing criteria then as well, but I was looking for temperment and "a nose". The sign of a decent SAR handler (in my opinion) is their dogs improve over time. When I started looking for the next dog, I knew much more in what I needed in a dog. I developed variations of the Volhard tests, added specific drive tests, and included scent tests with problem sovling. I had opportunities to help others select their next puppies before this, so I'd worked out any kinks by the time I started looking for Tempe. Tempe was the easiest dog I've ever trained because she truly loved the scent. Tempe died unexpectedly at 5 years of age due to pancreatic cancer. When I discovered there was something wrong, we were training with friends in Illinois in an abandoned warehouse. I packed up and drove Tempe home to the vet.

So, about a year ahead of time, I'm looking for a new puppy and have been actively testing litters since 2 weeks after Tempe's death in May.

It's been my experience that the dogs that make great search dogs have most of what they need at the genetic roll of the dice. Our job as SAR handlers/trainers is to refine their technique, show them examples of scent problems, and teach them that in order to play the game they must include their moronic handler in on the find. When it comes to scent, I truly consider my dogs the experts and I use them to teach me what scent is doing. I've found doing the subtle human remains work requires the handler to become very alert to their dogs behavior changes as sometimes the dog may get only a quick whiff at scent and then it's gone. Part of my dogs' training early on is finding single teeth. Developing my handling skills, I've found that working my dogs has made it much easier for me to read other people's search dogs, cadaver or live and help them to train. This type of work is only done if you obsess about doing it as you train year round, good weather and bad, nice parks and junk yards, in the day time and in the middle of the night. When people come to me to join our search group, I tend to tell them all the reasons not to do it to give them a chance to reconsider. I'm only interested in the individual that is compelled to do it regardless. I don't spoonfeed training. I make observations on what needs to be worked on and expect the handler to work on it on their own. If they need ideas, I'm happy to do it, but I can only work one dog at a time and it won't do them any good if their dog works great for me and not for them.

So, I suppose that's a good introduction. When I search with the local search group, I tended to accept all the crappy areas because I can handle it and my ADTs can definitely deal with it. I don't worry if my assigned area is going to be the one with the find as search work is entirely a team effort and all of the area needs to be checked anyway. My dogs have made finds. I know they can do it. Most of my call-outs tend to be negative areas as that's the nature of the game. Someone tells L.E. a tip and it has to be checked out to see if remains are there or not. Currently, if our group is working a drowning, Dax is sent out in the boat because she has the most experience at it. At ten years of age, I'm just happy she still loves the game.

I'm not an expert. When someone tells me they are, I tend to walk the other way. I've seen my share of searches and I know how scent works, human scent anyway. I tend to stick with area search and human remains work as far as training others because I've watched the masters at trailing work do their magic. I bow to their expertise.


Regards,

Jim Delbridge
Mustang, Oklahoma

[Maverick]

Glad to have you on board Jim! You definitely have much to add with your all of that experience, no matter how humble you are. Your insights and experience will be well received here!

Welcome, Pete.

[Wolfer]

Welcome aboard Jim...

I do have a queston..... On average how many of your first choices Pass on to being Search Dogs?

[oksaradt]

So far I'm 6 out of 9. This seems to be a year for puppies as 3 handlers I work with closely all had to get puppies recently and chose their puppies testing by the way I tested Tempe. They are as experienced as I am and did their own testing, made up their own protocols for their preferences, and did the testing all over the country. So far they are having a great time working their puppies. Two are HRD dog handlers and one is disaster, all with dobies and all three from different breeders.

One of the no-go's was selected to be a narc dog, but the owner decided that wasn't for him, so he tried cadaver. Dog has a great nose, but the handler decided staying married and being a father to his kids was more important. He's a good friend and I advised him going in that I'd lay off SAR work till his kids were grown. It took him 18 months to figure out his priorities. The dog is a Mal and very active. The owner is a mountain biker/fireman and he wanted a dog that could run the trails with him as well as do scent work. He got what he wished for.

Another was one I didn't select even though I offered. The handler brought me the dog after the fact. I tested it and noted some issues that would have prevented me from recommending the dog. The dog has a nose, but that's only part of the whole package and the handler isn't consistent. So, I'm predicting it'll wash after time. I hope I'm wrong.

I tease those that get dogs like this that they get great starting stock, it's up to them how the dog turns out. A cadaver dog team is exactly that, it takes both members and the handler can easily mess up a dog if he/she isn't careful in their training.

As I'm sure you know, there are two major dilemmas when a new dog team applies. One is where you see a decent dog with a green handler or worse, a handler that's been to every type of training there is and takes all the negative components to make up their own screwy training system. The other is where you see a well-intentioned handler, does all the grunt work, never complains, takes all the classes, and has a dog that couldn't scent its way out of a paper bag or just doesn't care to.

Starting with a great puppy is a heavy responsability and simply means we have no excuses.


Jim

[Wolfer]

DOesnt take Long for a handler to screw up a dog....... I havent ever been around a cadaver dog but do have alot of exp with widerness SAR work and quite a few labs a GSD's.

as for DObies in SAR . wouldnt that be a little weird considering the stigmatism that goes with the doberman breed?

[oksaradt]

Dobies and stigamtism....hmmmm
Dobies USED to be considered aggressive. I've been around dobie handlers for over six years and haven't yet seen one like the movies in the 70's. Dobermans have a lot of health issues that seem to be an accepted part of being a doberman owner that has kept me from ever considering working the breed. Up until my recent loss of Tempe, I've never had a dog pass away earlier than 12 years of age.

But, as I recall, I'm routinely quizzed by non-ADT handlers about why I'd choose such a breed to train as "well, we all know how difficult it is to train terriers....." One handler's stigma is another handler's attractive trait.

I've observed some excellant examples of dobermans doing disaster, area search, and cadaver. I've trained other dobermans at seminars that were easy to move up to the next level. I have no issues with them. I told a story on the NAWATA list that Carol Walker exploded on me privately as she thought I was talking about her, but this handler was beyond the point of extreme. He had a prong, choke, bell, and harness on his doberman at the same time. He carried a clicker and a touch stick. He started the seminar working a simple accessment problem by telling his dog "check check check" constantly as he moved it on-lead through the area. He was assigned to me because the head instructor has an evil sense of humor and knew he'd drive me crazy. By the end of the seminar, his dog was rockin' on an indoor problem in a men's shower and restroom. The dog had nothing on. The handler was quiet as I had his hands tied to his sides with duct tape and tape over his mouth. I tossed his dog the ball after it's third find and he hopped up and down with tears streaming down his face because his dog rocked. Nice fellow, an accountant from the deep south. Any one that's worked with me in person knows I carry a roll of duct tape to elimante the handler handicap at times so the dog can work. I have no problem using it as I went through my duct tape days myself. Sometimes it's hardest for a handler to just shut up and let the dog work. For the most part, the threat of duct tape is all that's needed, but some of us are just as hard as our dogs to get the point across.

Long day as a death investigator, so I'm off to finish reports.

Jim

[oksaradt]

Several of the discussions on the general board parallel this post as this is first what *I* look for in a recovery dog. This is a very personal preference in some regards due to my training style, but in some regards these are requisites for a decent SAR dog....in my opinion of course.

Wolfer, you stated on one of the other threads in the General board that you want a dog that will turn off and on as to hunt drive. For recovery work, I prefer just the opposite. I want a dog that sees the world primarily through it's nose and is obsessed with the scent I want it to find. Such dogs, if not given tasks often enough, will entertain themselves just like bored dogs often dig if their owner ignores them. An example of this is when Dax was about 3 years old, she had free rein of my land. I came out to work on the land and spotted her in an odd position, in a down near my garden with her front legs splayed and her nose sometimes goind down and sometimes her head turning from side to side. Always open to learn something new, I didn't say anything to her, but simply sat down in some shade about 10 feet away. As nose comes first with her, she noted my presence, but did not move. For about two minutes longer she continued this odd behavior looking as the grass-covered soil and nose dipping down. Then, she suddenly slaps a paw down hard on the ground and a mole tunnel collapsed out of no-where and her nose was suddenly down in the tunnel and her tail wagging. At this point, I had to intercede as I could not reward her for "crittering" in my presence as that's detrimental to the work she was supposed to do. I verbally corrected her and then had her follow me to a Human Remains problem I'd set up the day before. She happily went to task, nose down as working meant ultimately that she got to play with the "BALL" (at that time a goodie ship with a small piece of hot dog in the center) for making a find and Dax is very ball-obsessive.
This is not an unusual trait with the dogs I work with, mine or other handlers, as these dogs are chosen to be ruled by their noses, i.e. true high hunt drive.

I define hunt drive as "nose driven".
I define prey drive as "eye or visually driven". A breed known for high prey drive is the grey hound that chases the mechanical rabbit. It doesn't care that the "rabbit" has no scent. It chases as it's moving and could possibly be food, so it takes chase without thought.

I define ball drive as separately from prey drive as I've yet to find a round critter in nature. High ball drive is a mark for a reward system just as high tug drive is another labeling those dogs that simply love to bite and play tug-of-war.

Another test for high hunt drive is "food driven". Part of my testing includes hiding a jar full of wonderfully aromatic foods guaranteed to attract a dog that lives by its nose. I ask the breeder to not feed the puppies before testing as I want them hungry. I want to see if the puppy wil pursue the scent of food to its source.

Testing for dogs obsessed with cadaver scent keys in on another aspect of dogs as hunters. Many dogs over the generations have an instinctive drive to find rotting remains to roll in. The purpose of this is to mask their own scent such that they can hide in wait for prey to come within range without alerting the prey if the dog happens to be upwind of the prey. I test this both with recent remains and skeletal remains because my dogs are expected to find remains devoid of all tissue, sometimes decades old. Dax's oldest documented find is 250 years old scattered native american skeletal, a phalanges washed down from a grave by a river up onto a bank and sedimented in to bank itself.

Once I know the dog has a high hunt drive and is obsessed rather than aversive to decomposition, I give the puppy a choice of what it prefers. With the kindler, gentler breeds being developed, I actually give the puppy three choices. A simple maze is created such that wind is moving through the maze. Three articles are in the maze with a used, recently worn article of clothing as the first scent source. On upwind in the maze is antother food source. Farthest upwind in the maze are human remains. The puppy is plopped down outside the maze in a location where I know the scents will be hitting it in the face. After that, it is up to the puppy as to whether it wants to purse the scents or leave.

This is the last test for each puppy and the puppy has to pass temperment tests prior to this which I'll describe in a future post. Each test is this series is pass-fail in that if a puppy is no-where close to my acceptable range, I'll hand it back to the breeder with a "thanks, but no thanks". At times I have breeders request I take the puppies through the entire temperment tests to give them an idea of where the puppies would best place. I tend to comply with this as a fair trade-off on (in my view) getting pick of the litter. Realize that as Ed pointed out in a post, most people would not prefer the type of dog that I desire as it's going to be a "hard, highly driven dog". My wife basically has no desire to deal with my airedales as she says they have eyes for no one but me and the work.....this is a bad thing??


With the maze, I have no problem if the puppy pauses at each scent source, but for me to take any interest what so ever, the puppy has to eventually pass up the other scent sources for the human remains. At that point, the clock starts ticking as to how long they stay with it. I tested on ADT puppy last summer as a lark for the breeder. She didn't think her puppies would want anything to do with HRs. Yet (and I believe Ed got to watch this unless he was working his dog) her female puppy of ...?8 weeks? actually curled into a fetal position around the HRs scent source and looked to be in heaven.

At five weeks of age, my interest is piqued with any puppy that stays with the HRs longer than 5 seconds. With puppies this age, interest is fleeting. With Tempe, she was in the middle of two sisters. One stayed with HRs for 10 seconds, Tempe for 13 seconds, and one sister stayed with the HRs for 19 seconds. The final tests for these three puppies turned out to be Dax as I was concerned with female vs female dog issues. Dax growled at the other two puppies and licked Tempe's head, so that was the final say. This turned out to be a wise decision as Dax has always been a "i'm going to kick their ass" sort of ADT. In SAR, this can be a bad rep and there's been more than one seminar where she was put to the test before I was allowed to attend. One seminar instructor had me place Dax in a down-stay and move to an outer circle then the other 22 dogs in the class were placed in down-stays around her. The instructor then had 8 of these dogs called to their handlers while the other dogs had to stay in place. At this point, the instructor had created one path that Dax could get to me with and I was told to call my dog. Dax calmly walked out of the circle, her eyes locked on mine the entire time such that she wouldn't be tempted.


For those hunting dog handlers out there, this is part-and-parcel for a SAR dog. A SAR dog is expected to go places most dogs wouldn't putting their lives in danger and then turn around and be a model citizen to the world.

Got to run. I'm at my engineering firm today and there's a circuit pack that needs fixing.


Jim

[oksaradt]

Ok, sorry for the delay, it's been an interesting week.

The first part of picking a puppy for search&rescue or Recovery work is very similar, BUT
When I advise other handlers in picking a puppy, I have them sit down and document all the traits they want in a dog to work with including:
Curiousity
Dominance (or lack there of) - Don't confuse this with pack position, one describes the dog's personality and the other describes the dog's current position in its pack. I don't select for an alpha, a beta, an omega as those positions in a pack are many times temporary and fluid.
Confidence
Noise Sensitivity - I, personally, want a dog that notes a startling noise, pauses, then investigates cautiously till convinced the noise source is not a threat. Recovery dogs are often asked to work at active construction sites, along major highways, in disaster scenarios, etc. Part of a puppy's training with me is it gets taken to as many varying situations as I can throw at it from walking outside the local animal shelter, construction, school playgrounds, truck stops, oil rigs, on and on. I have cattle on one side of me and horses on the other side, so my dogs get non-chalant about them. I've worked dogs routinely in active pastures.
Sight sensitity - This has to be something that goes from small to large visibly. Most people use an umbrella. If I'm using this, I open one up and just drop it open end up, then see if the puppy will investigate it or if not, navigate past it to me. I've had the whole gamut of reactions from running away to jumping into the center of it, barking and biting.

The Volhard test has three dominance tests, "on the back", elevated, and "social". I prefer to stack these right after the other with "social" last as I term it the "forgiveness test". In the first two tests, I prefer a puppy that isn't happy about the situation, but will finally submit. I'm ok with the puppy rechecking if wriggling will get it out of the situation, but I do want it to come to terms with the situation. These first two tests have multiple applications in the future. They tell you what sort of personality you'll be dealing with in the future. They tell you how easy it's going to be to work on your dog or have someone else work on the dog such as the vet. The "social" is described as "the evaluator places the puppy down next to them while they tower over the puppy in a kneel then stroke the puppy." I go a bit further in that I will set the puppy down, but I give it the freedom to run away while I stroke and calm it. I'm happy with a puppy that starts to leave but can be talked into coming back and then makes up. If the puppy bolts, chances are it won't be forgiving to me for all the insanse situations I'll put it in NOR when I screw up in its training....I WILL screw up in Training.
The first test I do is have the breeder just put the puppy down in a "new area outside" and the breeder walks away. If I can't coax the puppy to me, I don't want it. I give the puppy every opportunity her and guage its response, but I've had a good number of puppies that failed right here.

Second, if the puppy will come to me, we shake paws, check scent, etc. I need to know it will follow me. There are puppies that will just freeze at this point and go no further. Sorry, those will fail as well.


On ball drive or Retrieving, I bring a "puppy-size" tennis ball and roll it past the puppy. Minimal response for me is the puppy follows it and checks it out. Better is the puppy follows it and possesses it. Best is the puppy is already doing a natural catch and retrieve, bringing me the ball to toss again. Dax was in the last category and has never lost her ball obsession. Tempe was the middle response, but using Dax I was able to build a competitive ball drive.

On tug testing (secondary for me as I prefer the ball reward as I can throw it to the dog at the find without my having to be at the find......my dog can be down in a 40 foot deep chasm, up in cave, in some brambles, etc. The dog tells me it has found human remains and where then I can throw the ball to the dog for instant gratification. My dogs also get a secondary reinforcer in food for trade of the ball. I never reward with food at the scent source for fear of contaminating the scent source with food. On tug testing, I use a fleece tug toy as it's the softest I could find to test a puppy on such that minimal response can be enhanced.

Pain sensitivity is checked using a gradually increasing pressure on the puppy's webbing of a paw. It's best to practice this to get consistent or your results won't be comparable. I count in one-thousands and increase the pressure with each count. Dax was a 4 and Tempe was a 7. This is why Dax tells me when she has a goathead sand burr buried in her paw and Tempe never showed any sign of pain from her cancer till it was too late. I prefer 4-7 seconds. I've done this on pit-bull puppies where I stopped at 15 second as my fingers hurt. The reaction you stop at is when the puppy tries to pull the paw away. I've never reached a yelp or whine doing this.

A test many of us in SAR have put in is surface sensitivity. This is seeing if the puppy will cross an unusual surface such as a wrinkled plastic tarp, bubble wrap, what ever. Something that is unstable and visual. If the puppy won't make it across it then it's not going to walk an expanded metal walkway 60 feet up in the air when it can see nothing underneath it and the wind is blowing.

That with the scent tests is pretty much the test.

The test has to be done in a new area the puppy has never been to - new sights, new smells, new sensations. This is especially important to the search dog as they will always be going to a strange place, so strange places must become the norm.

The breeder and anyone that's been in contact with the puppies must be out of the picture. Puppies/dogs are fairly near-sighted, so these people can be silent and downwind of the testing such that the puppy never knows they are there. I've had some people assist me with the noise test by banging a pie pan then tossing the pan down where the puppy can check it, but that's all the assistance I really need.

I suggest anyone doing this not come into contact with the dam or sire before testing as you'd now be contaminated with their scent and this can skew the results as well.

These strategies and tests can be applied to any type of working dog as long as the perspective owner/handler has a clear cut idea of what they want in a dog beforehand.

For my money to the breeder, I expect their part of the bargain is to guarantee me that the puppy is going to be healthy and their breeding program isn't going to promote bad hips, bad eyes, bad elbows, bad ears, bad skin, bad teeth, etc.

I have come into conflict with some breeders, mostly conformation, that take afront that I would not take their opinion as to what they puppy will best be suited for. Any more, I just walk away from these situations as I've come to feel such breeders are not secure in their breeding program. There are ways to promote personality traits in puppies in the first 5 weeks. If they want to do that, that's up to them. The testing isn't biased either way. Dax came from a litter that was handled by people every day and she's as aloof as they come. Tempe came from a litter where the breeder kept human contact to a minimum and Tempe loved every dog and every person she met. Both dogs are/were true to their initial tests. With Dax, I actually tested for an aloof personality as I wanted an independent dog that was fine working on her own. With Tempe, I decided that I wanted a variation, more friendly. Both dogs worked well with their own styles and I had to adjust to work with that style.

As this turned out to be so long, I didn't take the time to proof it. I apologize for any errors.

Regards,

Jim

[Wolfer]

Good read.... Keep it up Jim

[hicntry]

I would just guess this test would be the downfall of a good number of pups.
"The first test I do is have the breeder just put the puppy down in a "new area outside" and the breeder walks away. If I can't coax the puppy to me, I don't want it. I give the puppy every opportunity her and guage its response, but I've had a good number of puppies that failed right here."
Intresting stuff Jim. It helps that you explain the reasoning to the reaction you are looking for.

[jsf13]

Thanks for those posts, Jim. I found them to be very informative and educational. Dog people of all disciplines can use this information to their advantage.

[Maverick]

Have to agree, excellent post with a lot of useful information.

Thanks!
Pete

[oksaradt]

What I should add to the testing is this basically varies to what you want the canine partner you're choosing for the next decade-plus. For area search dogs, (I have utilized and had others use this successfully), HRs are replaced with a small child in a box. In fact we add a three box maze with the scent sources inside rather than outside. The child has to be absolutely still as he/she is only there to provide live continuous scent to the puppy being tested.

The point of all this is to avoid waisting 17 months of the dog's life and possibly selecting a high-ball drive dog that has no inclination to do the scent work you need. Dogs (selected using the method I went into) basically do the work for their own enjoyment and their handler is the support system and game/food dispenser.

I don't see why this can't be modified in selecting schutzhund candidates, hunters, what ever. It's just smart shopping.


Jim

[terrierlvr]

Greetings,
I am new to this bulletin board and have really enjoyed reading, and rereading many of the posts. I am still ticking away at reading them.
Not sure if this is the ideal thread to post my questions but it seems as good as any.
I've owned terriers, not Airedales, for 33 years and am now in a position where I am opting to change breeds soon, probably early spring.
A quick bio.......57 years , almost, a nurse who barely works anymore- by choice, walk/run about 30 miles a week, and I pretty much do what I want in my spare time. Did breed specific rescue for 20 years and still am involved in that, but only do the evaluation and training of the dogs now. The fun part.
I have wanted to be involved in SAR, specifically HRD and have been researching this topic for, oh, I guess about six months. It has not been the easiest of tasks to get information where to begin, how to proceed, where to learn. I did start participating in a local SAR dog group here in Colorado, but it is clearly WAY more complicated, and I suspect, political, than simply joining a group. I am not much for playing games, schmoozing, or playing politics. I like to get right down to business, but that ain't gonna happen if there is no business to "get down to." I have been told I need to be on a SAR team for a county first, but that is easier said then done. Contacted a couple and have never heard a word back. So, this leads me to my first question....and it is rather a silly one, I guess. Would I be totally wasting my time if I started training a dog, ( and I feel I have the resources and contacts to begin doing this, after I get the dog) with HRD as the major mode, and possibly assume that old philosophy of "if you build it, they will come?" In other words, if I had a very reliably trained HRD dog, would there be any increased chance of being actively involved in SAR, instead of doing it the "other way around?"
My husband is a police officer with Denver. Denver has its own canine unit, but I do not know about HRD dogs. I could easily find out as one of the canine dog owners is an old friend of mine. My read on the canine unit in Denver is like most places/LE canine units, and that people are hand picked to be on the unit, not necessarily related to your knowledge or background in dogs either.
I have narrowed down my choice of breeds to either a Doberman or an Airedale. I have owned Rotties before and clearly have owned terriers since 1972, so I am pretty comfortable living with either breed. By the time I purchase a puppy, I'll be down to just one old Whippet girl, so the timing wil be ideal.
Anyway, not sure really where to start, aside from asking this question and going from there.
Jim, you are down the road from me, a piece or two. Where in Oklahoma are you? How far from Denver? Are you open to a visitor coming by sometime, seeing your dogs, picking your brain a bit ( no, no surgery- I'll leave the scalpel home) and seeing if this is the avenue I want to bat my head against the wall to do?
Again, I have really enjoyed the various posts and topics. Thanks much. Bonnie

[oksaradt]

Greetings,
I am new to this bulletin board and have really enjoyed reading, and rereading many of the posts. I am still ticking away at reading them.
Not sure if this is the ideal thread to post my questions but it seems as good as any.
I've owned terriers, not Airedales, for 33 years and am now in a position where I am opting to change breeds soon, probably early spring.
A quick bio.......57 years , almost, a nurse who barely works anymore- by choice, walk/run about 30 miles a week, and I pretty much do what I want in my spare time. Did breed specific rescue for 20 years and still am involved in that, but only do the evaluation and training of the dogs now. The fun part.
I have wanted to be involved in SAR, specifically HRD and have been researching this topic for, oh, I guess about six months. It has not been the easiest of tasks to get information where to begin, how to proceed, where to learn.

A nice book to start with is “Forensic Taphonomy, Vol. 1”. You can find it on amazon. Vol. 2 is more for archeologist.

For death investigations, a good book is “Spitz And Fisher's Medicolegal Investigation Of Death: Guidelines For The Application Of Pathology To Crime Investigation”

There are multiple death investigation books out there with the basics on crime scene, photography, etc., but unless you want to become a death investigator, they won’t interest you much. The Spitz and Fisher is one I use as well, but from your medical background I think it will come in useful.

Andy Rebman has a book out, “Cadaver Dog”. I’ve read it. I think it confuses more than it informs. Most of my scent dog training was from either others already working dogs in HRD or the dogs themselves.






I did start participating in a local SAR dog group here in Colorado, but it is clearly WAY more complicated, and I suspect, political, than simply joining a group. I am not much for playing games, schmoozing, or playing politics. I like to get right down to business, but that ain't gonna happen if there is no business to "get down to." I have been told I need to be on a SAR team for a county first, but that is easier said then done. Contacted a couple and have never heard a word back. So, this leads me to my first question....and it is rather a silly one, I guess. Would I be totally wasting my time if I started training a dog, ( and I feel I have the resources and contacts to begin doing this, after I get the dog) with HRD as the major mode, and possibly assume that old philosophy of "if you build it, they will come?" In other words, if I had a very reliably trained HRD dog, would there be any increased chance of being actively involved in SAR, instead of doing it the "other way around?"

If you want to do SAR, join a SAR group. If you want to do only HRD, you have multiple options. I think finding a SAR group you can learn with would still be valuable for you, but yes, it’s very political. I sometimes think it’s a transfer of personalities from the conformation and dog competition worlds. When I first started in SAR, I attended trainings for months without looking for a dog as I wanted to see what I needed in a dog and I also wanted to see what training I needed to do. I think this is really the best way for SAR dog handlers to approach it, i.e. train themselves first and then concentrate on a dog. But, most bring their “muffy” who can find everyone’s socks and then leave when Muffy washes out.
If you do go a SAR unit route, I’d visit all the groups available in your area. An old team mate moved from Oklahoma to Colorado some years back and stated it was very political in the state group. He had to cert in rock climbing (which is probably a good thing in that state), but (in his opinion) they didn’t do HRD up right. (shrug)
He ended up doing searches for a county sheriff.
I did a little looking at Colorado’s death investigation system and it is a county Coroner based system where the Coroner is elected and hires a pathologist as needed. In Oklahoma, we’re under a state M.E. system where my ultimate superior is a forensic pathologist. I’m considered law enforcement in that I carry a badge, but (fortunately for us all) I don’t have to carry a gun. In a homicide investigation, the CSI’s/homicide Det’s own the crime scene and I own the body (own as in jurisdiction).

There is no simple answer to your question as you are subject to the political wind. You might find a county sheriff and coroner that think you and your dog are the best thing since sliced bread only for them to be voted out and the next officials think dogs can’t sniff their way out of their butts.
There are myriads of wrong ways to burn your bridges with law enforcement and my becoming L.E. definitely helped. I know many HRD dog handlers that become reserve deputies to get past the uneasiness L.E. has with civilian liability and (often) lack of professionalism. So, there is another option for you, find out if you want to become a reserve deputy and if they offer such opportunities in your area.

As for me, before I became a death investigator, I had developed a network of handlers I trust and work well with around the country. We help each other out as needed, so some years I worked more out of state than I did in when I was strictly civilian SAR. As you’ll read in one of the other posts, I did train with an infamous character, Sandra Anderson, who at the time was considered the best by Quantico. As Sande preached ethics night and day, it was a shock to all of us that she didn’t practice what she preached and salted her searches so that her dog, Eagle, was making finds. This is unethical as well as puts all cases she and her dog worked in jeopardy as needing to be re-tried. A lot of good dog handlers either just gave up or went underground for a while, working for L.E. quietly. I really prefer doing HRD work this way. I like going in without any fan fare, working the scene, presenting the results, and leaving just as quietly. Most of the HRD dog handlers I know that stick with it do it for the “hunt”, “puzzle”, or the zone it puts them with their dog. Many SAR dog teams get into Cadaver training as an aside and their primary focus is on area search for live people. My attitude is if they restrict their work for tissue-related remains only then this is a good application for such searches such as disasters, tornadoes, hunters dying in the woods within a certain time, suicides in a recent time frame, etc. I haven’t really seen a cross-trained dog that does skeletal remains well as the scent is really a different type of diffusion.

So, you might want to consider if you want to do fresh remains only, fresh remains up to a certain time dead, historic work. Historic work is really the most demanding and probably the easiest to find work. I worked one of my dogs for several years documenting cemeteries for several counties. The cemeteries were pre-statehood and many had unmarked graves. The caretakers did not like digging a new grave and finding coffin and bones in their dirt pile. I personally think it’s much easier for an historic-level HRD dog to mix up to fresh remains than it is to go the other way. This is why I train my puppies on only skeletal/dental for the first year of their training. It shows me the dog can do the very fine work and it is forced to target down to a single tooth.

To start historic work, I simply had my wife, close-to-a-master genealogist on her off-time, send out word that an HRD dog wanted to train in cemetery work in trade for documenting cemeteries down the road when we both felt the dog was reliable.

Another option for you to pursue if you’d like to do this long term is to go through the forensic nursing route. The university I pursued a masters in forensic science at had such a program, but we only had two nurses in our group. They decided to pursue a Technical Investigator path instead. One is a death investigator in Houston now. The other (I believe) went a psych nurse route. Get a forensic nurse cert and you could probably get elected as Coroner in your county and deploy yourself for recoveries.





My husband is a police officer with Denver. Denver has its own canine unit, but I do not know about HRD dogs. I could easily find out as one of the canine dog owners is an old friend of mine. My read on the canine unit in Denver is like most places/LE canine units, and that people are hand picked to be on the unit, not necessarily related to your knowledge or background in dogs either.

From the L.E. officers I’ve spoken with (and this by no means says this is the rule everywhere) is that K9 officer tends to be viewed as a plum job as you are insured your own vehicle, you get so much automatic overtime for canine care, and you get so much time off for designated canine maintenance, i.e. training, vet, whatever. I have spoken with several frustrated officers with lots of dog training experience that were turned down such positions because they didn’t have the seniority. I also know several K9 officers that I try to suck their canine knowledge dry every time I get to work with them as they’ve been doing it for decades and stuck with it because they were good at it.








I have narrowed down my choice of breeds to either a Doberman or an Airedale. I have owned Rotties before and clearly have owned terriers since 1972, so I am pretty comfortable living with either breed. By the time I purchase a puppy, I'll be down to just one old Whippet girl, so the timing wil be ideal.

I was training with the United Doberman Conference when my 5 y/o Airedale, Tempe, began exhibiting pain with (what we discovered was) pancreatic and intestinal cancer. I like dobies and love working with these teams, but going in you should realize that (and these people know their breed very well) dobies are fraught with health problems and few working dobies live as long as I expect most ADTs to live. I get teased that my dogs are the rare curly coated Dobermans. My opinion is that it comes down to your personality. I enjoy training and working with my ADTs more than I do when working with the dobies. And, if you can’t have fun doing this, then you should do something else.




Anyway, not sure really where to start, aside from asking this question and going from there.
Jim, you are down the road from me, a piece or two. Where in Oklahoma are you?
I live in the very SW corner of Oklahoma City in the center of the state. It’s a 13-hour drive for me to Pueblo, one way.
You can trade email with me any time. If I’m on-call with the state, my time is not my own. I just came off an 8-day shift where I was on 24/7 and covered basically 6 counties. Today I’m off and at my engineering business….the job that really pays the bills so I can have the other job that I enjoy…..yea yea, I’m a twisted individual.


Regards,

Jim