BACK, the long line, and 5 months old

[oksaradt]

There should be a post coming with photos of Murphy and initial buried, but today's 2nd half of his 1st Ten of shallow burieds gave me ample material to discuss on here. I've never succeeded in putting photos in my posts here, so the Admin does it for me.

I set up the 2nd half (5) of the 1 inch burieds yesterday. This time in 4 inches of grass over the soil. I checked the soil temperature (40.2F), the air Temperature (36.3), and the air temperature in the grass (39.2). This meant there should be scent coming up out of the grass for young Murphy (I keep wanting to calling him Skywalker, but I am not going to start talking like Yoda.). Flags were set out with utmost precision 20 feet E and W of the sources plus end flags at the N and S points using a tape measure and a rope. With tall grass I have to do this to get the sources back unless I want to dig up a cubic foot of soil and sift. That it was sprinkling the whole time we worked was incidental. I'll work my dogs in anything but a rain that's heavy enough to squash the scent and push it down into the soil. There's something magical about working a dog in an ice storm, just you, the dog, and the tinking of ice all around you.

My management goal with Murphy was to keep him within the flags and let him do his own thing. Being a 5 month old, Murphy decided it would be so cool to stay outside the flags no matter what I said. Deciding this was an adoleschent personality issue more than scent, Murphy got put in my Xterra for a time out and got to watch Dax work the problems which caused him no end of frustration which could be measured by the tantrum coming from within the X.....darn shame.

Soooo, my challenge was how to communicate to Murphy my wishes. Using the Koehler throw chain training method has no effect on Murphy. Something loud and metallic landing next to him is a curious oddity, but nothing for real concern. In fact they make good chew toys if one is careful not to sling them from side to side and slap one's self in the side of the head (that was entertaining). When I got Murphy out of the Xterra to try again, he got to meet my 30 foot long line. I (as a rule) do not like training dogs in scent on lead as this often leads to the handler inadvertently correcting or cueing the dog in scent. Today, the long line was to teach Murphy the concept of "BACK" and "Leave IT' as he decided that pecans and cat poo were very entertaining. Burieds can start out this way as you have to teach the dog that their is a mystery in them thar soils before it knows to chase that mystery on its own.

Murphy got hooked up to the long line as I let him out of the Xterra. He made a big show of taking it in his mouth and dragging me along for a bit. My job was to keep it as loose as possible without getting in his way and keeping him in the area. Murphy's first "Back" response of verbal first then tug on the line was a venting of frustration (gotta love a dog with attitude). His second response was less of an outburst. By the third correction he was turning before I had to tug on the line. With the pecans and "Leave it" we had the same learning curve. (I should point out that we've been doing "leave it" for some time to the point he'll spit out a milkbone if I growl this command after he's stolen someone else's milkbone.)

Once Murphy figured out what "Back" actually meant we had more order in the world and he worked the problems his way. I'm fine with that. Dax is extremely methodical in her gridding, but Tempe was always prance around then BOOM, scent is here.
Murphy appears (right now) to be somewhere in between. He'll zip around until he gets in scent then he works it in circles till he locates the source. I consider searching style to be the dog's call as they are vastly better at scent than I'll ever be.

With the long line, Murphy knocked out his sixth-to-tenth burieed finds in much quicker time. I basically let him drag it loose unless he was about to leave the area and would place a foot on it, lean down pick up the end, and tell him "back" just before it got tight. This way I minimized an influence on him in scent.

So, Murphy got a big party of tug-of-war after his five finds with only minimal digging on one source (I was happy with that). After that he got to run the indications stations again (off lead) as I'd moved them all yesterday to complex locations where their mere presence did not clue him in to scent. On all but one of the piles, he checked the pile superficially to find no scent, left the pile, then found scent away from the pile and had to work back to the pile. Seems I'd placed all the sources underneath the bricks(between bricks and soil) causing slope and air flow to be more of a factor. After the second one he worked, I definitely got the "you S_O_B" look. This always makes me happy as it means the dog is learning.

Oh and Murphy got a new distraction on the blank pile, a latex glove, which he had to think about. This is important in our work as you always worry if the dog is indicating on latex or nitril as we handle our sources with gloves normally. The people I originally trained with loved to set ten gloves out in a field and ask you to use your dog to see if any glove had HRs on it or not. The pile with deer tissue he checked and blew off for which I verbally praised him for as he was walking away.

So, lots of concepts covered in today's training and lots of issues I'll have to reinforce in future trainings. I'll continue with the long-line-drag until he appears to respond to "BACK" automatically.

Jim

[terrierlvr]

Jim,
A few questions. Training with a long line, with terriers particularly, is the ideal way to go because terriers, as we all know, love to blow you off and do what they want to do. Having control over them, FROM A DISTANCE, makes better control- closer up- much easier. All our terriers that come into rescue are trained with long lines right from the gitgo. We use the same identical words, only with a few extras......" come on" means you are to follow me with your eyes and when *I* change direction, YOU change direction- doesn't matter if they are 25 feet away but they are to watch me at all times and change direction and follow me, "with me" is more of the same, only the dog must be much closer- next to me but not a formal "heel", "easy" means just that.......tone it down a notch or two, etc. There is NEVER EVER tension allowed on the line, whether up close or 20 feet away. "Settle" means they must learn to stay put and hang out in the spot I want them to hang out in. Usually, they are tethered, and they must learn to be quiet and calm. I don't care if they sit, lay down, stand on their heads or have belly up.....they've gotta be quiet and calm. Tension on the line gives the dog the signal that they are in control, not the person. I am mentioning this, not suggesting you do these things, only that is how WE do the training here.
" Leave it" is just that, as you mention. Don't even think about touching that dang thing. "BACK OFF" is a stronger and more serious term......."don't even think about it but if you DO think about it, you are in trouble" is at the back of my mind when I say "BACK OFF." "Wait" is nearly the very first thing I teach, because it can save a dog's life. Wait getting in the car, wait getting out of the car, wait before you get your food, wait before you cross in front of somebody......wait, whenever I say wait. A dog was born knowing what sit and down are. They just don't know the human words associated with it. Easy fix.
My question is simple. Is there a reason you do not train specifically with a long line when they are very very young, right from the gitgo? Is this something you do only when you need to fine tune something a dog is/is not doing correctly?
I always train with a long line from the very beginning and fully plan on doing so when I get my new puppy in May, God willing! Any reasons you can think of to NOT do this, as it applies to HRD training?
Great reading, as always. Bonnie

[oksaradt]

My question is simple. Is there a reason you do not train specifically with a long line when they are very very young, right from the gitgo? Is this something you do only when you need to fine tune something a dog is/is not doing correctly?
I always train with a long line from the very beginning and fully plan on doing so when I get my new puppy in May, God willing! Any reasons you can think of to NOT do this, as it applies to HRD training?


Bonnie,

I've seen too many HRD dogs that become compliant to the handler rather than to the scent. Not to knock a breed, but it's been my experience that GSDs as a whole try to learn what the handler wants rather than respond to the stimulus; Thus, they are really prone to cueing which can create (what are interpreted as) false alerts. The handler decides he/she KNOWS where the scent source is and their body language, lead handling, whatever convinces the dog to give an alert regardless as to whether there is a scent source there or not.
In my opinion, while a lead is a great way to control a dog it also becomes a crutch for both the dog and the handler. The e-collar is no different as (and this boggles my mind but some swear by it) there are handlers that claim they can reward and correct the dog with the e-collar. My opinion is that a scent working dog (or as the press like to call them...a sniffer dog) needs to be primarily controlled by the scent and we only intercede for safety or expediency.
I started AKC obedience work...oh...22 years ago in a really great city club. I got very good at lead work and still use this to work with behavior-issue breed rescue dogs. For me a choke chain was a noise generator rather than a correction. I have used only flat collars for lead work for over 8 years. Any of the CGC classes I've attended to get socialization on my ADTs I watch the handlers with their prongs and multiple versions of these cringe at the thought of giving up this crutch as they fear their dog is suddenly going to be pulling their arms out of their sockets.....ok, all this was to establish...yea, I know lead work.
With the past two dogs I've trained for scent work, I've started them out off-lead as often as possible. They reach a period (as Murphy is at right now) where they just gotta test the limits to see what they can get away with. I need this independence in scent work and can not squash it because I must create a dog that has the confidence to tell me when I'm full of sh*t and the scent is here. I need to establish the relationship with my working dogs that they stay within the agreed limits of the work area without the need of the lead. The dog has to have the freedom to go where the scent is and this is not always where we think it's going to be.
One of my primary goals in my vocation is to continually learn by measurement and by observation what scent is doing. We can't see it. Rarely can we smell it (if we could, why need the dog, aye?). We can't feel it or hear it. By observing the dog we can learn what scent is doing. There have been countless problems I've set up for my dogs and others where I just KNEW what the scent was going to do only to be proven wrong by all the dogs working it. If I'd had a lead on my dog chances are that I'd have been one step further down the road toward creating a lying dog. Now, dogs don't lie. What dogs do is respond as we've taught them is acceptable. So, it can be common to see a dog exhibiting submissive behavior doing scent work as it realizes (Damn! There's no scent here, but the handler....*sigh* HE thinks it's here. I do the alert and he'll be all happy, play ball, feed me...life is good. Life is too short, let's give him what he wants.)

Now, the dog does what the handler expects. The dog is rewarded. The handler tells L.E., "yup yup, the body is down that ravine, better bring out the ditch digger." $20,000 of manpower and equipment charges, there's nothing down there.
The handler's reaction, "DUMB DOG!!!"
Part of what I'll be teaching next week (or torturing the handlers with) is our foibles. I hope to give them each a daily puzzle that appears quite easy. If they and their dog are honest, it will be easy. If there is cueing going on, poor proofing, guess work, etc.....these puzzles can be hell. I know as I've suffered through each and every one of them during my learning period. But, ya know, I'd much rather the weak points be pointed out to me at a seminar instead of $20,000 later with a ticked-off FED breathing down my neck.

And, the obvious answer is if you work your dog in scent work with a lead, you run the risk of either Correcting the Dog In SCENT simply by it reaching out to pursue a whiff and you are staring at your untied shoelace. The lead becomes tight, the dog suddenly thinks, "this must be a bad scent as I just got a tug. I'll ignore it." Much of the sources my dogs have to locate are extemely sublte. HRD dogs don't do a "recall" as area search dogs do because "it was hard enough to find it the first time and now you want me to find it again?? are you looney!?"
Murphy is starting his 3 inch deep teeth today. One hole happened upon either a soft spot or a gopher run, but the probe dropped down to 8 inches. Murphy will get a "bye" on this. If he finds it, it will count towards his TEN. If he doesn't and gets the other four, then he has four and counting. My guess is he'll get it, but it's up to him. These burieds are on a slope and we're enjoying 35 mph winds today. I really hope I don't have to use the long line at all, but it will be there if he's still wanting to test his boundaries.


Ultimately, my attitdue is my dogs are off-lead with me 90% of the time when we are working. I carry a lead with me to .....well, people expect it. When my dogs misbehave at training, it's talked about for weeks or months afterwards because it's that rare. Tempe raced off 1/2 mile to find a dead racoon and the wind was such that she couldn't hear the command to "back". She'd never experienced dead racoon before. She got to experience it 3 times a week for the next month to the point she would turn away when she got a whiff. People are still teasing me about that after Tempe has passed away. To me that's a credit of her off-lead obedience. If you expect your dog to mind off-lead, you might as well start out that way unless safety is an issue. You can do this when you get to start with a fresh puppy. Breed rescues and unknowns, the lead is there for safety.

You're just going to have to learn to train your dog without the crutch. It'll make a better handler out of you. At many seminars I attended, if the dog couldn't work off-lead they put you with the beginners regardless of your dog's scent experience. At some seminars they simply said if you don't have off-lead control then you can't attend. It's that important.


Hope this helped,

Jim