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Post by hicntry on Mar 16, 2006 20:17:51 GMT -5
Well, lets look at the vein this thread is running in. I have made some suggestions that were just about as realistic as it comes. Suzanne feels we don't want to listen to her views, which is not true. I think it has been established that, although the working side doesn't care what the standard is, they are in general agreement that it is not a real working standard but, "they don't care" . I feel the standard encompasses all airedales because there is a series of points that will be penalized if they are far out of the standard. That is simple. The ATCA's stand is that everything has to be within the standard or it is bad for the breed. It is evident that the ATCA hierarchy has no interest in a rational discussion because they feel they are right and the working people are just to dumb to know it. While that may fly among the members of the ATCA, most people will understand that it was founded as a working breed. The conformation people basically, hijacked the breed and through bigger numbers, try to convince newcomers to the world of airedales that they are the saviors of the breed. They are not, they are the saviors of the "appearance" of the breed but that is where it ends in my opinion. The working airedale people have nothing at all to concede in this discussion, It was pointed out that the conformation side has control and always will. That leaves the working side nothing to concede, only to accept the eventual fate of another working breed to fall prey to the conformation ring. We talk real working dogs, they construe that to be obedience and agility. I applaud Suzanne, Dave Post and Martha for stepping up to the plate with what I believe, to be a positive, sincere effort to reach a possible understanding between the two sides. Any one that is rational, can in no way mistake a real working airedale as the ruination of a working breed. The Airedale Terrier Club of America, has let these fine members down in my opinion.
Part of the purpose of this discussion, was to possibly create a truce between the two factions. The people holding the power in the ATCA, apparently are not interested. There are two possible approaches left. 1) The ATCA has approx. 700 members. One approach is to muster enough working people to gain the voting power. Rest assured, they don't all have to be working people to understand what is at stake. Out of the 700 ATCA members, only a handful of showbreeders control.
2) This may take longer but, we all have time. I will keep a constant ATCA discussion going. Why have I mentioned the ATCA so often you might ask. For the same reason I am going to start referring to the ATCA as the Airedale Terrier Club of America. Computers and search engines are a marvelous thing. Don Turnipseed High Country Airedales
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Post by Suzanne on Mar 16, 2006 22:11:33 GMT -5
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Post by hicntry on Mar 16, 2006 23:07:28 GMT -5
Hi Suzanne. The link goes to Brenda's and I assume you are showing us what the airedale could turn into....it already has. I talked to Kenny last week just talking dogs. We call each other off and on just to talk dogs. In talking to them, they both are stand up people. Kenny wishes my dogs were bigger and I wish his were smaller. It is that simple. I am not going to try to prejudice people against dogs that are not to my taste because that is what a lot of folks want. I am not going to try and prejudice people against small dogs because many people want smaller dogs. I breed what I want, and everyone has the same right. I breed the best dog I can by testing them in different venues, conformation people do the same. It is everyones right. I doubt many people work the really big dogs but they may, I know they don't show them, they are just pets and family members that are part of someones family. This is why the ATCA and many conformation breeders are looked as elitists. They are superior and they are right so eveyone should do like they do. As long as the conformation breeders maintain the look, and the working breeders maintain the ability, the dogs will survive. I can't stand keesh but I don't expect everyone to not like the god awful stuff.
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Post by Judy Howell on Mar 17, 2006 2:37:58 GMT -5
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Post by Maverick on Mar 17, 2006 3:27:55 GMT -5
Those dogs did not get acquire that look by any kind of athletic performance breeding! They obviously have a haphazard ancestry that was not concerned with competing in the showring, nor competing in any kind of physically demanding performance event. What also riles me, is that they are raised in pampered environment. No Airedale should need heat, even in Alaska, and they are way to far north for too much heat to be an issue. I suspect that they also do everything possible to save every pup, even the weak and sickly ones that should be culled. I wouldn't be surprised to find one or more of those in their breeding program, but maybe I am being a bit harsh. I just wish she would find some poodles that she liked, rather than deteriorating the Airedale breed further. And you don't need pretty, but genetically inferior show genes mucking up a serious performance breeding program, to have good looking dogs! None of the hunting breeds that have split off from the showring that I know about ever go back to the showlines to improve the looks of their dogs. They already have good looking dogs, and most of the differences with the show lines affect performance adversely, sometimes severely. I have nothing against beauty when form follows function! I would like to see the tan replaced with a rich red color, but not at the cost of performance. I'm sure that it would eventually show up in the top performers of the breed, and then could be selected for without having to sacrifice performance standards. Think about this: How many of the Olympic athletes are butt ugly? How many have an unattractive body? And how many get chosen to compete based on their prettiness? Think a super athletic Airedale is going to be hard on the eyes??? - Pete
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Post by jsf13 on Mar 17, 2006 8:42:52 GMT -5
Excellent post Eggers!
Judy,why don't you try posting again? Sometimes mistakes happen.
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Post by hicntry on Mar 17, 2006 9:45:38 GMT -5
Guests are welcome Judy. You have had your chance to have your say through this whole thread. But, once again you chose to just jump in only to degrade someone. I have no idea if anything you said was true or not. I do know that there is email and private ways to carry on vendettas like that but it won't be done here. Really big airedales have been around for a long time. I have also noticed on many of the showy type boards , one of the main subjects of those owning dogs is the extremely poor state of affairs the health of a lot of dogs are in, as Pete pointed out. The last time we had contact I was in your sights, You informed me of the great number of bench champions that had "working" titles. In this world working is not inclusive of obedience , agility and such things. I asked you how many working titles you have personally put on your dogs. You didn't answer then either. It has been my experience that a few conformation dogs win a few titles competing largely against each other and in your world you all take credit because it was a conformation dog. Most conformation dogs just do conformation. How many working titles have you gone to the trouble to put on your dogs to make sure they remain true to the real standard?.
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Post by Judy Howell on Mar 17, 2006 11:50:13 GMT -5
Curt, While I do not have a definitive answer to your query as to why ATCA does not support Schutzhund activities, my first (and slightly educated) guess (and I seem to remember this being in print several years back when the issue was being discussed by ATCA members) is that ATCA is an AKC member club and because of the public's PERCEPTION (and I emphasize "perception" because I realize that what is really going on is not what the uneducated public perceives) of what is going on when a dog is biting the sleeve they do not want "dogs biting people" to be associated with anything AKC. The breed's aptitudes for protection and tracking are some of the many reasons I chose to get involved with Airedales. I had my first airedale bitch temperament tested (by a Rottweiler breeder and Schutzhund trainer) for suitability for Schutzhund training and she passed, but along the way I became totally distracted with conformation competition, which for now suits me just fine. If I ever figure out where to find the time for training, I would want to work with a friend here who does serious SAR with her Belgian Tervs and go for a tracking title (Kim tested my last litter at 8 weeks of age and found one boy who she thought had great aptitude for SAR training, unfortunately he was not my conformation pick (but oh I liked that puppy!) hopefully his new owners will at least do some tracking with him.......and just an FYI, a young male from a different breeder who was sired by the same dog as my last litter is in serious SAR training with a law-enforcement person and I hear that he is doing quite well). Good luck with Gator...it appears that although ATCA does not offer any venues for Schutzhund competition there are others that do and you are taking advantage of those opportunities. One other thought, in these days of Breed Specific Legislation, we certainly do not want Airedales to be put on the "No-no" list because they have a propensity for biting people! It's a tight-rope walk with Schutzhund....I realize that only dogs with very stable temperaments can be successfully trained to do bite-work, but again, unfortunately, we are dealing with uneducated public "perception." Judy Howell
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Post by hicntry on Mar 17, 2006 12:26:31 GMT -5
Very good post Judy. I understand where you are coming from with the "uneducated perception" because I fell into this category some time back and understand how the wrong conclusions can be drawn by what we perceive is happening in bitework. I feel the organizations involved with bitework should be very open and public about the sport so people have a better understanding of it. Exposier is what is needed, not to squirrel away in little groups. Exposier tends to desensitize people, through familiarity, so they don't stroke out when they see or hear something they have been conditioned to think of as bad.
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Post by Doggitter on Mar 19, 2006 20:27:34 GMT -5
I would like to know what percentage of show mark downs are from being too short vs too tall.
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Post by Judy Howell on Mar 20, 2006 1:58:12 GMT -5
I would like to know what percentage of show mark downs are from being too short vs too tall. I think Suzanne stated a while back on this thread that there are dogs that are champions that are somewhat over the "suggested size" for the standard, as well as bitches that are considerably smaller than what the standard suggests. Our "Standard of Perfection" actually leaves quite a bit of leeway for size. And just so you know, to the best of my knowledge, it doesn't appear that judges are actually calculating "points off" for being too big or too small (granted there are a few judges who will exclude on size alone), but since our standard suggests a size "range", for the most part size is not the determining factor as to who will win in any class of dogs...if there is an exhibit that is pushing the standard for size but full of quality and balance otherwise it certainly will be given equal consideration by many good judges. If the judge is good the overall quality of the dog will be a much more important factor. The standard calls for "balance" and moderation....nothing should be extreme....and movement or "action" is the critical test of conformation. Whether the dog is small or tall, it should be in balance....front to rear, depth of chest to length of leg....lenght of ribcage to loin and pelvis, etc. I hope this sheds some light on your question...if not, let me know if I totally missed the mark as to what you were asking. Judy
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Post by hicntry on Mar 21, 2006 14:41:01 GMT -5
Just had to post to this thread to keep it on the front page. ;D
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Post by Suzanne on Mar 21, 2006 16:37:17 GMT -5
Don, This thread, the Airedale Standard, seemed to move to other threads.
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Post by jsf13 on Mar 22, 2006 8:05:11 GMT -5
Pretty much says it all,eh Curt. And not just one terrier.
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Post by Maverick on Mar 22, 2006 15:56:21 GMT -5
Something I've known for 25 years, and anybody that is seriously into working or hunting dogs. Patrick does make a well reasoned and well written case though. You get what you breed for, and you can't breed for performance without testing doing the actual job. Competing side-by-side with other top dogs is the only way to know how "good" your dog is. Another thing, the more that time passes since I lost Lady, the better that my old Patterdale Sammy looks. It certainly not because he is getting any better (the opposite is true), but it is because that the memory of how pathetic he looked in the field next to Lady is fading. - Pete
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