Pointing Airedale?

[frankyme]

My pup is 8 months old. He has flushed a few planted quail, mainly for gun training. Last weekend we went out to try and sneak up on some ducks in spring fed pot holes (standing water is freezing around here and they concentrate in a few places I know). Anyway I manged only one shot at one duck and missed it. But we did manage to flush 4 turkeys (not in season) three of which we were close enough to shoot. The last one the pup actually tracked (I saw the fresh tracks in the snow) and the wind was at our backs. His nose down he got out of gun range then suddenly spun around and stopped. He started to creep back to me and stopped. I got within 20 yards of the dog and a full grown tom turkey in tall grass flushed like pheasant between us. Very exciting for both of us! Kodiak went off completely out of control for a 100 yards trying to catch the slow moving, loud flapping bird (he's only 8 months). I don't know if was actually 'pointing' because I got a little distracted by all the noise that bird made. A little while after that he locked up, one front paw up opposite back leg out, head down tail straight. When I got up to him two doves flushed out of a bush 10 ft from his nose.
He defiantly flushed straight through the planted quail in the past. But just about every time he stops when we are on off lead walks and he sees or hears something he has the classic pointer pose. It usually lasts a few seconds and then he's off to investigate. I'm not sure if he was "pointing" the doves or he just heard something and stopped in his pose like he always does.
Should I plant more birds and see if he still flushes them or points them? I'm concerned I'm ruining his potential pointing instinct by giving him easy to find hard to resist planted birds.
Is pointing something he may be growing into?
Should I stay away from the easy to smell planted quail and stick with wild birds we might encounter?
Should I just encourage a strong flush because if he was a pointer he'd have been pointing birds consistently by now?
He is for the most a very close working dog, so far, so I'm not sure if pointing will be an advantage.
Frank

[markbaldassarre]

I'd either cultivate what you want, or let his own instict take over and work w/that. The pointing sure would come in handy for grouse and he is a close worker...

He sounds pretty good either way!

[phil]

Frankie,
Good to hear that your having fun with a pup again. To point or flush,that is question. It seems to be always on sports person mind,when it comes to hunting dogs. As I have said before it is a mind over matter question. If you don't mind it does not matter.
M.O.M

Point: An indication of the presence of scent. To stop all movement,stand before,lock-up,freeze.. All of these behaviors have there place in an upland situation. The general consensus thought in the pointing dog world about breeds that are not known as pointing breeds is whether or not an individual dog will back another dog that is on point. or will they steal the point and flush the bird. Young pointing dogs will do this when exposed to situations that they are not ready for. Normally once a dog has indicate an aptitude to point whoa breaking and staunchness should be encourage. Birds from this point on should only be shot if the dog holds point thru the flushing process. Though unless the steadying process has begun dog should be allow to chase the flyer. Most mainline pointing breeds take to this process very well once the initial pointing behavior has been "woke" up. Then the only question that needs to be ask do we steady this gun dog prospect or do we allow him to chase freely while hunting. M.O. M

Flush: Once there is an indication of scent, to push from the nest,,using either feet or head, in the case of runners to take to the trail and blow out, Flushing breeds tend to be more dynamic around scent and game they are always moving, normally strong flushing dogs quicken the pace, this is always an easy read that dog is dominating the situation. It is that domination that attracts so many to the flushing breeds.

Lets examine different levels of stimulation..from the dogs point of view.
Frozen training bird.. OK?
warm fresh dead bird....Ummm!
Clipped wing live pigeon or quail ........... now your talking!!
Pigeon or quail that has just flushed in front of the dogs nose.................Oh boy oh boy oh boy!!!
Planted pheasant that decides to move around in the field a bit before dog gets to the nest or planting spot. Doggie comes in from the down wind side of the nest..throws his head, takes the track, and blows the bird out and gives chase. Bang!! Dog marks fall and makes retrieve.... Wow, this is what I was bred for gimme some more!!!!!!!!!
Wild Turkey track and scent..big bird big scent...while trailing dog is confronted by 15-20lb big bird.......now up to this point in my development, dog has seen quail (7oz) or maybe a pheasant
(2-3lbs). He may have been just a bit startled.
But not to worry, you and your bud are having fun.
At 8 months old he sounds like a fine prospect. Though do not be surprised if his range habits change as matures. Most gun dogs do not learn how to run properly until they are 18-30 months old.
If pointing is important range is less important then the only behavior that you will need is staunchness. in other words dog will hold point until you get into the picture. If flushing is important then a proper quartering pattern should be developed.
A side note concerning the AKC & ATCA Upland test that Dales will be eligible for 7/1/09. This is FLUSHING dog test. Pointing is a disqualification. Though that will still leave "Fun in field events" conducted under the HWA banner.
Never the less really good to see your back in the "saddle" again after losing your first Dale

Hal

[frankyme]

Thanks Mark and Hal.
I'll keep on watching for signs of what he is predisposed to do.
I think I'll plant some chuckars for him to find which will hopefully keep him from catching.
For the record, I wasn't out there looking for Turkeys they just happen to be between us and the next pot hole.
Yes, it is great to be back in the field behind a puppy!
He only gets 'out of range' on a hot trail. I've been hesitant to sit him when he is on a track. Should I be? Or should I keep him on a check cord when I know he is into a bird?
Rephrase what method do I employ now with a puppy to ensure my dog doesn't range out of my compfort zone?
It was constant battle with Teddy but as he was older I had no problem telling him to sit and wait while I caught up.
I'm kinda hoping for avoiding the constant battle with Kodiak.

Thanks again,
Frank

[Summit Forge]

Frank, I would begin controlling his range now. If he makes game beyond the gun and you let him do it, you are "training" him to do it. Yes, a sit to the whistle is appropriate anytime including when he is out too far but...

It would be nice, if you could teach him to quarter left or right at anytime by blowing 2 quick toots on your whistle and giving him a hand signal for the direction in which you want him to go.

I have never seen an Airedale "point" to my satisfaction. I see them as flushing dogs and should be encouraged to give you a strong flush. Don't worry about your dog catching birds until you feel the need to train for sit to flush. I would give him a bunch of clip-winged birds to run down and catch. Kodiac will love you for it.

Ron

[markbaldassarre]

Frank,

The best way to handle his ranging would be; under controlled conditions where he can be stayed while on a hot track, and then released to the bird as a reward for the OB. Similar to outing a dog and then giving him a re-bite as a reward for the out.

[attd]

Frank - Sounds like he's a natural on all birds, and could hunt them all given the chance. I'd encourage the turkey hunting Jon

[frankyme]

Took the pup up-north yesterday for some ruffed grouse hunting. His first trip on wild birds. He stayed in tight and ping ponged between me and my hunting buddy well (had to go through 2 foot of slush at times). My buddy shot and wounded a grouse that flushed 30 yards ahead of us (he got really lucky). The pup got to chase it down. After a few mouthfuls of feathers he finally got a handle on it and retrieved to hand.
OK, now he knows what we're after.
10 minutes later Kodiak cast over to my buddy who was 30 yards to my right. He circled around my buddy and got behind him and got really birdy. I signaled to my buddy thinking the dog was on a squirrel track or something. The grouse flushed and my buddy was able to spin and knock it down.

9 month old pup flushed a grouse that we walked right by! That's it, that's his job! I couldn't be happier. Kibble earned.

New spot a few hours later. Hadn't flushed much so we split up, the dog went with me ;D

We had a thaw last week and the grouse seem to be in the bare spots under cedar and spruce trees. Because of drifts and shade there is still 1-2 foot of wet snow in some spots in between even though some patches are bare. We are trudging through the deep wet stuff when Kodiak locks up 5 yards from me on a black spruce. The tree formed an umbrella like a protected bowl. Great place for a grouse to hide. He pointed for 5-10 seconds and I'm starring at him and trying to see what he sees. Then he broke off and started to leave it, I figured false alarm and took a step. Thats when Kodiak spun around and busted through the spruce umbrella and flushed the grouse. One poorly placed shot is all I could manage in the think stuff. I'm guessing he smelled something and didn't see it and the bird was still until I moved.
Still confused about the pointing vs. flushing but two birds went home us and if we were better shots probably would have had 2-3 more. Good day.

Frank

[markbaldassarre]

Frank that's awesome. Confused? Just keep doin' what you're doin'...at least for now.
I'd expose the crap out of him, getting as many birds under him as possible and then decide if you want to enforce the point later.
You're obviously reading the dog well and being productive as it stands. I'd just let it go and have fun for now.
Lots of pointer guys get all upset if their dogs bump birds and go as far as not shooting if the dog does it. I wouldn't be all that worried about it. IF you decide later to have the dog hold point you can teach him w/stocked birds later. IMO, the most important thing is getting him birds & birdy now. Pointing is more of an OB exersize in dogs not heavily predisposed to it by instict. You can always change up his "OB" later.