TD this one's for you

[ed]

In the vid is a 9 month Airedale bitch Hanne v. Christinheide is being worked in Hungary.
The dog is from a German kennel that my young bit*h Grace(now BH) is from .
Don't want to get into the technicalities of sleeves, suits, body slams ,muzzle work etc but just watch introducing a young dog into the game.
Curious if everyone thinks most Airedales at this age would play the game?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyZT_xaT1sA

[Kimf]

A smile from Nori (Heiterer Nori vom Treffenwald, born 3 May 2008) a few weeks ago, at our training field:


More pictures:
s676.photobucket.com/albums/vv127/hukkanakki/Railin%20koira/

B.t.w we have a brother of Hanne imported - must send the link to the dog's owner - so thanks for the link

[markbaldassarre]

Nice pups, Ed & Kim. Do these lines throw any real aggression?

[Kimf]

They have a quite nice defense drive, but no social aggression.

And it's in the line - I have one myself and I've seen several other dogs form this line

[markbaldassarre]

The defense is good to hear about, Kim! We've had some discussion here about "social aggression". Could you elaborate upon that please?

[ed]

Mark a fellow I know, Armin Winker has written on Social Aggression see below. What is valuable about Armin is that he is familiar with Airedales, and is originally a German national but has lived many years here and has a great command of English. He has translated a lot of German text and has pointed out how the concept of Sharpness and the German word for sharp differ in meaning re: dogs.
Don't know Kmf, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was in agreement with Winkler.Most German Giant Schnauzer breeders I met described in a pretty similiar way.

A problem with these discussions is for most people even casually interested in dog protection sport/work is that they are a big turn off. Not like cool vids.
Any how for me Social Aggression means a dog comfortable with his family and hostile to outsiders,what has been described as the closed pack.

This is kind of genetic behavior is a huge no no for breeders trying to sell dogs to the public.


The link below for those interested.
Armin Winkler
Social aggression
www.siriusdog.com/schutzhund-sport-dogs-winkler4.htm

[markbaldassarre]

Thanks Ed. You probably missed the thread where we were discussing SA. I value it in the instances where it crosses species. I wanted to know if Kim was speaking of it in that way rather than only w/i the species.

[Kimf]

I've seemed to forgot a word in my latest reply:
but no real social aggression.

The easiest way to become misunderstood is to use terms, without defining them. So lets try to explain what I understand...

Aggression = defense drive + social aggression
defense drive = reactive aggression
social aggression = active aggression

Reactive aggression is used to act against a presented threat.
The dog just tries to defend itself against the threat by escaping or creating a bigger threat by barking or growling.

Active aggression is activated without a presented threat.
It can be because the dog has a born behavior or it has learned to react this way to a special situation. Here the dog is really going to hurt the object, if it doesn't submit.

Especially with an AD male I have problems to see that it's really going to hurt a helper (like a furious schäfer) if it got loose during an aggression training. A bitch might attack a not moving helper without a sleeve, but a male would most likely just start a hold-and-bark and dominate the helper.

I've got this picture, that in VPG, after letting go of the sleeve or at the blind, an AD dominates the helper, like it does when it stops a prey during hunting - it doesn't become furious.
After all AD is originally a hunting dog, that can also be used for protecting properties.

...and I like to see an AD behave this way

[hicntry]

The dogs I refer to are actually social dominate rather than social aggressive but it is usually seen written as social aggressive/dominant. These dogs are the cream of the crop but they are not aggressive. They are the epitome of dominance and they will die to maintain that dominance over both humans and superior animals.
Kim, you are right on in your description of a male dale standing down when a situation is under contol. They have a tendency to exert the force necessary to maintain the upper hand. Here is where protection sports does not tell all. If you, or an animal actually inflict pain on that male dale during a confrontation, you will have opened pandoras box and what you will witness you won't likely forget.

[jackwhite1]

'you are right on in your description of a male dale standing down when a situation is under contol.'

Highcountry, I dont think Kim is alluding to the dog, 'standing down'
The dogs, Male ADs, arent interested or live to in take the fight to the helper, say in an instance it got loose. 'Fight' as in, For real, like during a bout at aggression training where they want to do serious damage.

I witnessed this once from a Czech import Shepherd.
It DID get loose hours later, made a 'B Line' straight to the helper, who had no sleeve on at this time, and the dog going to try to Kill him, literally.
Thankfully the owner intervened & was paying attention and we formed a circle around the helper with our chairs.
I prefer to just be honest about what we have and dont have, rather than the anecdotal stuff and generalizations.

I think her description of social aggression is spot on..that is also what makes an AD a better family choice, but a poorer choice for police work imo ie crowd control and the Switch to Light up.

Most dogs cur and run off in fight/flight. Ive seen ADs, SchH3 titled, run off the field.
That said, ive also seen some excellent AD specimens too.

[jackwhite1]

EAST GERMANY'S BUNDESSIEGER
1988

This article was written before the wall came down. It reflects the conditions that were present before Germany was reunited.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was not without a little concern last January (January 1988) that I started the paper work on getting permission to travel to East Germany (DDR) and video their bundessieger prufung. In the end my concerns were unwarranted.

I use the term Bundessieger because we Americans have become familiar with this word from West Germany. The DDR calls their championship the Diensthundesport Meisterschaft. This competition is an all breed event where the West German Bundessieger is a German Shepherd specialty schutzhund championship. The DDR does not have a competition where only one breed competes.

This year saw 48 entries, 24 German Shepherds, 16 Giant Schnauzers, 5 Rottweilers, 3 Airedales, 1 Collie and 1 Great Dane. Don't snicker too much about the Collie. It was his 3rd trip to the Meisterschaft (finishing 8th last year)and you should see him bite. The Great Dane scored 93 in protection and was easily the crowd favorite at the trial.

A lot of people have asked what was involved in getting permission to make this trip - so I will share some of the details with you.

The first step was to contact the DDR Embassy in New York. I spoke with Mr. Fritz who is an official that works in the commerce section. Which means if you want to do business in the DDR you must start here. I informed Mr. Fritz of my video business (by supplying him with a sample tape, catalogues and articles I had written). I explained that I would like to produce a documentary on their bundessieger.

Mr. Fritz arranged for me to get an invitation to come to the DDR from the International Press Center in East Berlin. After receiving this invitation (in the form of a telex) it was necessary for me to send my passport, two extra passport photos and the telex invitation to the DDR Embassy in Washington DC where my visas were issued.

On August 22 I flew to Frankfurt and then drove to East Berlin on August 24th. Under the best conditions this is an 8-hour trip. My trip took a couple extra hours.

At every border crossing (from West Germany to the DDR) there are 2 entry points. One for those that are driving directly to West Berlin on a transit visa which is obtained at the border and another for those that are staying in the DDR.

I did not realize this until I was at the wrong border crossing on the autobahn. The official (who spoke no English) was very friendly and came out of his border crossing house to stop traffic - while I did a "U" turn on the autobahn and was allowed to go back the wrong way (against traffic) one block to the other crossing station.

When you get to the right crossing point - you will need your passport, a form #F73/1, and the registration papers on your car. Your visa is stamped in your passport and the DDR Embassy has sent you a blank F73/1 and you had better make sure that Hertz has the correct papers in your rental package. There is usually a line of people waiting to have their papers inspected. If you make a mistake and forget something, you leave the line, correct your mistake and then get back at the end of the line.

Because I already had my visa, I did not think that I needed to fill out this form F73/1. I was wrong - so - off I go to fill it out and then back to the end of the line. The official did not speak English and his directions were a little too complicated for my poor German vocabulary - when I got to the front again I understood that he also needed the license number of my car (which I did not have) - so off I go to get it and then back to the end of the line.

When I finally got to the front again ( we are now approaching an hours time) - the official is amazed to see I still do not have the correct information. I was not sure where the mistake was. Finally the man behind me explained (in English) that what I really needed was the registration and insurance papers for the car. Off I go again, but by this time the official is laughing and feels sorry for me, when he sees me get in the back of the line (for the 4th time) he calls me to the front to finalize everything.

I had turned a 20-minute process into a 2-hour escapade. So any American that travels to the DDR and uses this information to save himself 1 1/2 hours at the border owes me a beer.

After the first official checks your papers, you are re-checked at three other places (the last of which is a customs officer). Then you are allowed into the country. I must say that every official was friendly and polite. I had no problem with the border crossings going into or out of the DDR. My feeling is that this would be the case with anyone whose papers are in order.

My next stop was the Palace Hotel in the center of East Berlin. There are certain hotels where foreigners must stay - and they are not cheap. They cost 190 DM per night(about $100.00). The service and quality is equivalent to a Hyatt in America. If you ever travel to the DDR, reservations can be made through your travel agent in America - mine had been made for me by the Press Center.

On Friday morning I had a meeting with an official at the International Press Center in downtown East Berlin. We signed a contract to produce my video. It required me to pay 1,800 DM (about $1,000.00 - which I thought was too much for a dog show). I am to supply the press center with a sample copy of my tape and articles. They in turn supplied 2 men to help with my work. One was a translator (Jurgen Pranzlauer) and the other an expert in the dog sport of the DDR (Uwe Krachudel).

The money paid for Jurgen and Uwe was well spent. They came furnished with "Department of State" cards that got us where we needed to go and eliminated any small problem that came up along the way. Jurgen never declined to translate anything that was said - if you have ever traveled in Europe and not spoken the language - you will realize what a luxury it is to have a translator to help you.

Uwe was a young man who has been involved in the schutzhund sport in the Berlin district for 12 years. He seemed to be known and liked by everyone. He had an excellent knowledge of the Meisterschaft and its rules.

Uwe arranged permission for me to film from the edge of the field (and sometimes on the field). He obtained a SDG Schutzhund rule book, a judges score book, and a great deal of information on the SDG Breed Survey. The SDG is the equivalent of the AKC. The SDG breed survey is much more comprehensive than the West German Korung - it is too extensive to cover in this article. Hopefully I can put this information in a later article.

Uwe also set up interviews with Mr. Hans-Joachim Swarowsky (the Vice President of the SDG) and Mr. Bernd Schermaul (the head schutzhund judge of the SDG). I met Mr. Jurgen Menz (the president of the SDG and was offered a Sunday afternoon interview - which I was not able to keep because the trial ran longer than was expected. Missing that interview was the most disappointing part of the trip - I hope to be able to reschedule our talk next year in Leipzig at the DDR Sieger show.

The competitors at the meisterschaft come from 15 districts. They competed at a local level and a district level to qualify and had to score 90 points in obedience and 90 points in protection to come. Next year the requirement will be raised to 92 points in protection in an effort to reduce the number of competitors. The feeling was that 48 dogs was too many for the three day event (they only use one stadium for their competitions).

The event is organized differently than the West German Bundessieger. There is one tracking judge and 2 obedience and protection judges (their scores are averaged) . The top 20 dogs always track on Saturday and do obedience and protection on Sunday. Six dogs will go through obedience and then the blinds are quickly set up and the same six dogs do protection.

Like dog sports everywhere on a given day any one of 30 dogs could win if luck is on his side. This year a dog from the Saturday group won the Meisterschaft - which kind of blows the "20 best on Sunday" theory.

The winner was Methius Hartrich and his Giant Schnauzer Nick. They are from the district of Schul which produced the top scoring team in the trial. Their score was 98,96,98=292. This was the first time Methius had competed with his 3 year old dog.

Second place went to Peter Wendt (from the district of East Berlin) and his 8 years old Rot Cay with a score of 100,88.5,95=283.5. This was Peters 14th time and Cays 5th time at the Meisterschaft. Peter also finished 2nd in 1984 and 1985.

Third place went to Dieter Zickler (also from the Schul district) and his German Shepherd bitch Otty with 99,96,87=282. Dieter has won this competition 3 times in the past (1972, 1973 and 1974) and Otty had been here twice before finishing 2nd last year. I was lucky because the obedience and protection was all done in the same stadium so I was able to film all of the top dogs doing their work. They ran 6 dogs through obedience and then set up the blinds and ran the same 6 dogs through protection.

A DDR track is more difficult than our schutzhund III track. It is one hour old, 1,300 meters with 5 corners (one being acute). There are 3 articles, and one cross track. The tracking was done in plowed fields similar to what we would see in the Bundessieger. I got up at 4:30 Saturday morning to drive 30 KM to film several dogs track. I was lucky enough to video Peter Wendt (2nd place) do a 100-point track with his Rotweiler Cay.

Obedience work in the DDR is more difficult than our FCI schutzhund rules. Heeling patterns are done at a walk and then again at a run. The dogs do sit stays, down stays and stand stays out of motion just as we are used to seeing but they are exposed to gun fire on the recall, the long down, and just as they pick up the dumb bell on the flat.

There is an exercise where the dog is placed in a down stay and the handler moves 10 meters away. On command the dog must crawl (on his belly) to the handler. The 6-foot straight scaling wall is still used. It will be eliminated in 1990 for the same reasons we stopped using it here is America.

The send away was interesting. The dog does a normal send away and the handler goes out of sight for one minute. When he returns the dog is given a hand signal recall and is exposed to gun fire as he comes.

The protection phase of the competition is certainly different than what I was used to seeing in Schutzhund. The dog searches 11 blinds. He travels down the field, then turns and searches the blinds a second time back up the field. He does the regular find and bark after which the helper does an escort to the judge. There is no escape or bite work here.

The dog then does a full field attack on a fleeing helper. The bite is done with the helper running away and the dogs were trained to take the man high near the shoulder. The sleeves had a small pocket that the shoulder fit into. The helpers wore not scratch pants or bite suits. There were no accidents but the potential is sure there for one.

An interesting thing is that the handler can tell the helper which arm to wear the sleeve on. With no other protective equipment the helper made darn sure he heard the handler correctly when he was told. On more than one occasion he called back to verify the right arm.

During all bite work the handler is off the field. So he sends the dog and then leaves the field. The dog is required to release on his own (without a command) within one minute. He then must stay with the helper for a second minute before the handler comes to retrieve his dog.

Next the helper goes to mid field and stands facing the dog which is put in a down stay 10 yards away. The handler leaves the field. After one minute the helper does an attack in which the dog gets 2 stick hits. One before it bites and then another after it bites. The dog has one minute to release (without a command) and then must stay with the helper.

The helper work was the one weak point in the trial. I was not impressed with the speed or intensity of the helper that did the bite work. It was my opinion that the dogs were better than this helper. On a number of occasions the dogs were so quick they did not get hit before they bite (and on several occasions they were not hit after the bite).

I was impressed with the sportsmanship exhibited by everyone at the trial. I did not witness one time when the crowd booed or screamed at a poor performance. Rather if a handler or dog had a problem they applauded his effort when he was finished. You certainly can't say that about the West German Bundessieger.

Purchasing a dog from the DDR is not impossible - but close to it. I wanted to bring back a competition dog for myself but could not because of the bureaucracy involved in exporting dogs.

The exportation of all animals (dogs included) from the DDR is handled by a government agency called Zoologiga. If you want a dog it must first be sold to Zoologiga who in turn sells it to you. The paperwork to get the dog exported requires 5 or 6 signatures from different officials. Getting this paperwork complete will discourage all but the most determined - and even then it may not always happen because there are some dogs that are not allowed to be sold because the officials want them to remain in the country for breeding purposes.

Dogs from the DDR have a lot to offer breeders in America. They have pigment and bone that we don't see anymore. I saw some of the best German Shepherd heads I have ever seen. I was told (by an official of Zoologiga - Dr. Yonder) that the bureaucracy involved in exporting dogs will be reduced this year. I hope this happens.

In 1990 the DDR is going to change to IPO rules so they can compete on an international level in the world Meisterschaft. If they are going to compete at the level their dogs are capable of they will need to improve helper technique. This may take a couple of years but I am sure they will become top contenders when it happens.

I hope some consideration is given to try and work something out with the DVG in West Germany so that handlers like Methius Hartrich and Peter Wendt can have a place to compete with their super Giant Schnauzers and Rottweilers.

[hicntry]

"I prefer to just be honest about what we have and dont have, rather than the anecdotal stuff and generalizations."

Apparently this only applies to those with dogs you have never seen and know nothing about. Being honest as you like to put it , means you have no idea how a dog you have never seen is going to react to something....yet you are sure they are going to cur. First, you need a better understanding of the dog you are dealing with. Airedales are not GSD's or Mals, nor do they react the same. For one thing, they will know this is just a game the first or second time around...so why should theyu act like it is something serious and go after the decoy? Yes, it may be anecdotal but, my dogs have never missed a beat when they perceive I am in danger. They step in and neutralize the perceived problem and continue to hold in front of the problem. Now, maybe these dogs are different than many airedales, but, the love a challenge and pain triggers them. If anything I have seen inflicts pain on them, they give back much worse than they got. The thing about the dog you describe going after the guy you will never see in an airedale because I they are smarter than the dogs you are used to working with and are nor easlily lead into gameplaying.....honestly.

[jackie]

Kim, thanks for the definitions. I don't know a lot about protection but find everything Airedale related interesting and want to learn more. Great pics and vids everyone. My question was, after watching some of the vids here, and on other threads, what happens when one of those dogs gets turned lose at the wrong time and goes after someone? This thread has given me some answers. I was also wondering about some of the helpers who get down and roll around on the ground with the dog without any neck or head gear? Also, I know from only having two Airedales (so far) that they are real smart and figure out what is going on pronto as Hicntry notes. They would know that this is just a game of sorts and I'm sure some of the other dogs do to. I noted that in one of the vids the dog is wagging his tail while biting the guy's arm. I see protection sports and hunting trials are what people and their dogs do to approximate the real situation, but it still isn't exactly the same. Anyway, very interesting. Jackie