Post by oksaradt on Oct 6, 2009 8:13:12 GMT -5
Cemeteries
I thought I’d talked about cemeteries, but looking back I guess not. For the serious HRD dog team, cemeteries are one of the best training aids you can find. Embalming started being pushed at different times around the country. Around here it became the hygienic method of burial around 1959. In truth, embalming is really only required if you are either to be transported out-of-state or viewed by your family and loved ones . Years back I asked a successor of Dr. Bass what happens when we’re embalmed. He said that for about 15-20 years, the preservative works ok, but after that the remains quickly turn to soup. As part of decomposition with any creature produces gas, caskets and vaults must have a method to outgas pressure. So, some of us worked out that even with embalming and vaults, locating remains is still possible after a decade or two.
So, how does this help the HRD dog handler? Well, it doesn’t unless you want to document cemeteries. As part of Dax’s training early on, I was able to hook-up with a great county historian. Our deal was that she’d take us to some known cemeteries where she knew were all the graves were, marked or not. We’d work these until we became confident in Dax’s abilities (an mine). Once we felt on board, I agreed to help her document every cemetery in her county. Over three years we got it done.
Many of these “cemeteries” had no appearance of what most expect of a cemetery. 120 years ago, parts of Oklahoma exploded with “white eyes” moving in to share in the bounty of Oklahoma with the transplanted Native Americans. There were many small towns that formed. Some survived and many didn’t. If nothing else, the Dust Bowl obliterated many. Many of these “cemeteries” looked like cow pasture (complete with cattle) and undeveloped fields. To her credit, the historian did get a county tractor to brush-hog the worst of them.
Dax and my job was to find every grave there if at all possible to document the cemetery. In doing this I learned a lot of interesting facts about graveyards and various cultures. One nifty fact was that the orthodox Jewish culture does not believe In embalming and want a very basic box to return to the earth. This would make their graves very similar to clandestine graves where the “bad guy” just can’t bring pall bearers and a coffin. So, get your dog good at working such graves and …..well, the dog improves at finding possible crime scene graves. Working lots of these cemeteries also taught me what conditions made scent more accessible to the dog and what conditions don’t. I can remember one particularly cold morning when Dax and I arrived at dawn after a 3-hour drive. The air temperature was in the teens. I put Dax’s water bowl out and 20 minutes later had to break the ice out of it. Dax and I were struggling. The sun came out and the dark soil in this area suddenly warmed up quicker than the air. Where Dax had found two graves in 20 minutes, we found some 30 more in the next 20 minutes. Oh yea, the wind was 30 mph or so as well. Dax learned (on her own) to hold her head at a certain angle to work with the wind to make the finds.
Over the years, I’ve been lucky to work with some native American tribes to help them recover their ancestors burial sites. Each nation has their own unique cultural practices and it behooves the dog handler to spend time with those asking for your help to find out how their ancestors would have been buried. Some follow Christian beliefs, but some believe in letting nature de-flesh the remains for months before burying the skeletal remains. Some of the graves are shaped as in a typical American cemetery with the six-by-three-by-six hole, but others dig a round bowl grave with the remains laid out as they saw fit. As the grave becomes the container for your scent source, the grave can become very important. The soil of the area becomes important. Bury someone in sand and the scent will diffuse out a long way from the remains. Bury someone in high clay content and at times the scent is contained while at others it is totally masked due to moisture content. Hopefully, it’s becoming clear that to become proficient at finding graves, it helps to get a lot of training in with as many variations as possible so that both you and the dog become versed in the task.
On the weekend of September 26th, Murphy and I got to go play with Bonnie Guzman and Porter. Bonnie has posted on her before as terrierlvr. Porter was selected using a system like mine that Bonnie applied to her choices. I have to say that Porter rocks in HRD. He’s one of those dogs that just has a blast working scent and he’s very good at it.
We were able to work two different cemeteries in Denver. One is where remains were moved from a large cemetery that is now a park. When remains are moved, many times they only move some of the remains as the coffins might fall apart, the remains might fall apart, etc. A lot depends on the age of the remains to be moved. In such cases, if you know the original site and the moved site, you really have two training areas if you can get permission to work your dog. If at all possible, when starting it helps to have someone that knows where all the bodies are buried, literally. You can’t go by headstones as many times when a body is moved, the stone stays…shipping costs a large rock….it’s cheaper to buy a new stone at the new destination. Also, many times relatives can wait years or decades to purchase a stone for Uncle Abner. One then has to hope the cemetery caretaker knows exactly where that grave was. In other words, sometimes stones get placed nowhere near the grave.
Many times when working graves, you start noticing after the fact the depressions where the graves have collapsed. A moved grave and an intact collapsed grave often look the same. That’s where a trained dog can be helpful. Some cemeteries that I’ve been asked to work requested the dog’s services because they would dig a new grave in what was supposed to be an empty plot only to find it was already occupied.
So, one cemetery we worked was a historic cemetery. We found a bare area with few stones and decided to see how Murphy would do. I should note that my previous dogs and I got into a rhythm when working cemeteries where the handler’s job is to keep a dog on a line. The handler has to be very careful not to cue the dog or talk it into something not there while keeping the dog focused searching an lane of ground that the handler defines by their walking backwards and drawing the dog. As the dog is possibly going to be making a lot of finds, it’s not uncommon for the alert/indication to get shortened. Dax would simply get to the point where she’d just stand over the grave in a very pronounced halt. If I ignored this, then she would bark and touch. Any full indication takes effort on the dog’s part. Let’s say you have your dog do a down on each find and you work a cemetery with 150 graves. The dog will quickly get fed up with “down-up-down-up-down-up ad nauseum”. Most dog teams work out an acceptable routine. My dogs quickly learn that a flag must be placed before we continue, so often I throw the flag into the ground at their feet. I’ve seen some dogs with handlers with poor aim that would halt and wait until the handler placed the flag where the dog had meant for it to go. We could all hope for such a dog.
As I’ve promised to do some cemeteries in Oklahoma this fall, I’d asked Bonnie if we could do some cemeteries. Once Murphy got into rhythm with me we started to move over the area in lines and shifts. Murphy would halt, touch a spot, I’d toss a flag, and we’d move on. When we ran out of flags, we stopped and looked around. We had a identified three rows and six columns of graves with some graves missing. Suddenly the earth with patchy grass had imaginary headstones rise out of the ground and the cemetery took form. I consider this the best part of working cemeteries as it’s like the past comes alive. Any and all of the flags can be confirmed with either another dog or probing the edges of the grave for soil density changes. I traded IM’s years back with a dog handler that now claims to be one of the “historic gurus”, hosting historic experiments when we’d been doing this for years. I asked him respectfully, “so, what’s an average rate of finds for you and your dog?” He stated that over six hours that he and his dog might find 30 graves as he stopped after each grave, measured it, probed along all four sides, wrote it all down……the dog is tied up over to the side…. Basically the dog had to be restarted 30 times. I don’t think he believed me when I told him we’d had a competition to see how many of us could flag a hundred graves in an hour…..some had headstones after all, it wasn’t that hard. I should point out that I don’t care for most competitions in SAR dog work as I think it can distract the dog handler from the real task at hand. This was an impromptu decision on all our part in a cemetery where about 12 dog teams were all working the same 150 (or so) graves at the same time, i.e. our dogs were all working off-lead with us amongst other dogs doing the same thing. Imagine an agility trial where they start each dog team 15 seconds apart through the same course….. If the handler and dog are focused, they are barely aware of the other dog teams and instead focused on each other and the scent. It was very cool.
Oh yea, headstones. You’ll find out that when you start that your dog will want to indicate on the headstone. The marble headstones absorb scent over the years and can appear to the dog to be the strongest scent source there. I only accept a headstone if it had either been misplaced in the grave, fallen down into a collapsed grave, or it’s an infant grave and the grave is most likely under the stone itself. You have to get the dog to focus on the ground and not the stones. Be consistent and don’t accept indications on the stones and the dogs quickly blow them off for the graves. This is important in cemeteries as often times a stone can be for multiple graves. Square headstones that point up may have four to eight graves around it (think tic-tac-to with the stone in the center). Allowing the dog to indicate on the stone means you could miss up to seven graves.
So, that goes into the next situation, possible tight overlaps. The worst cemetery overlaps Dax and I worked was one town’s cemetery where the townsfolk were very frugal. They buried deaths sequentially regardless of family. They buried one coffin butt-up to the side of the next coffin. My historian at the time knew this going in, but chose not to tell me. I tend to let the dog wander a bit at the start to acclimate before we get down to business. Dax started shifting her head back and forth, looked at me, scent again. Suddenly Dax put both her front paws out in front of her in a splayed form and barked. I looked at this confused and commanded, “show me.” Dax then alternated paw taps with first the left and then the right exactly over where she’d splayed. I sighed and turned to the historian and said, “I don’t know what’s going on, but my dog tells me there are two graves right on top of each other.” The historian laughed and shook her head in wonder, said she wasn’t sure what we would do, but that Dax was right on and the whole cemetery was that way. So, depending on how many people a family wants to crowd into that family plot, there could be many finds and the dog has to work out the overlap to identify multiple burials. This is one reason why teaching overlaps with other sources in a controlled environment is essential.
This takes us to the other cemetery Bonnie took us to. She found what I’d requested, a huge Jewish cemetery. I decided to let her run Porter first. We went there in the afternoon and I expected the temperature differentials would be against us, but this is Denver and other factors came into play. Denver had enjoyed an unusual run of rainy days just prior to our arrival. Denver can be very dry and on this day the humidity was dropping fast. While the temperature differential was against us, the humidity of the soil was much higher than the air and the evaporation caused scent to come out of the soil. This was a beautiful cemetery, well taken care of with lush grass, trees, cedar bushes, etc. Odd thing about vegetation and graves, the roots bring up the scent of the remains and it comes out the leaves and bark. Porter became like a kid in a candy store and Bonnie watched on helplessly as he raced about, sometimes pausing to roll in lush grass near a grave. He would go under trees and his eyes would glaze over. I let this go on for a while then suggested at this point that Bonnie had to enforce boundaries to contain Porter’s wonderment. After that he did great. We returned the next morning to a different lot but same cemetery. Starting out the finds were easy, but as the air warmed we could both tell that the dogs were having to work harder, humidity no longer there to see us past the negative temperature differential.
Bonnie and Porter did get to work a challenge that morning as I spotted three graves butted up to each other as marked by their stone. I challenged Bonnie to get Porter to recognize that there were three unique graves there. After time and frustration on both their parts, he came through….Porter rocks.
We also had both dogs work at the same time tate next day. This was something I had to learn to do with my dogs early on as described earlier. The dogs are there to work, not to play. That means they may have to get to the point where they are working adjacent areas and ignore each other as they walk very close to each other locating different graves. It was common that we’d have someone flag an area then have another dog team move in behind them to confirm (or deny) a flagged grave; Thus, the dogs had to be trained to ignore the flags as markers. You had to train your dog to see a flag as a possible “gotcha” as well as a clue.
My wife is (what I call) a “rabid genealogist”. While many catch this bug in their retirement years, my wife started in on it at 17. She’s published multiple articles in a respected genealogical journal. She researches both her lines and mine(when hers grow cold for a bit). Through her I found my first historian that was essential to training Dax on cemeteries. I’d walked many cemeteries with my wife, helping her collect tombstone information, before I ever started working HRD. It wasn’t until I started working Dax in cemeteries though that I came to realize that a lot of that empty ground out there isn’t so empty. There are people that make it their hobby to document the cemeteries in their area. You can easily find them through a web searches on genealogy, grave projects, …cemeteries. Finding one that will be patient with a budding dog handler might be harder. My first historian had a grant to reclaim all the cemeteries in her far western Oklahoma county, so she got partially paid to be out there with me on pre-dawn Sunday mornings, sometimes in extreme cold and sometimes in very hot conditions. We had to plan ahead to hook up and basically, I took what the weather dished out. Working HRD is only rarely an emergency though, so with snow storms we could mutually call it off. My point is that I was lucky to find Mrs. Fox to work with over four years, documenting all the cemeteries (I think we got them all) in Ellis county. To do this right, you will need to work out a deal or some quid pro quo with someone that DOES KNOW WHERE ALL THE BODIES ARE BURIED… to make sure you don’t talk your dog into empty graves or headstones. If you can find a large cemetery that goes back centuries with excellent documentation that wasn’t lost in “The Fire of 18XX” then that could work as well. You will eventually need to branch out to other cemeteries. Eventually, you’ll be working blind. When that time comes, I’d still have those “knowns” handy to check or calibrate your dog on periodically.
The rest of the weekend we worked our dogs on vehicles, but that’s for another post.
Regards,
Jim
I thought I’d talked about cemeteries, but looking back I guess not. For the serious HRD dog team, cemeteries are one of the best training aids you can find. Embalming started being pushed at different times around the country. Around here it became the hygienic method of burial around 1959. In truth, embalming is really only required if you are either to be transported out-of-state or viewed by your family and loved ones . Years back I asked a successor of Dr. Bass what happens when we’re embalmed. He said that for about 15-20 years, the preservative works ok, but after that the remains quickly turn to soup. As part of decomposition with any creature produces gas, caskets and vaults must have a method to outgas pressure. So, some of us worked out that even with embalming and vaults, locating remains is still possible after a decade or two.
So, how does this help the HRD dog handler? Well, it doesn’t unless you want to document cemeteries. As part of Dax’s training early on, I was able to hook-up with a great county historian. Our deal was that she’d take us to some known cemeteries where she knew were all the graves were, marked or not. We’d work these until we became confident in Dax’s abilities (an mine). Once we felt on board, I agreed to help her document every cemetery in her county. Over three years we got it done.
Many of these “cemeteries” had no appearance of what most expect of a cemetery. 120 years ago, parts of Oklahoma exploded with “white eyes” moving in to share in the bounty of Oklahoma with the transplanted Native Americans. There were many small towns that formed. Some survived and many didn’t. If nothing else, the Dust Bowl obliterated many. Many of these “cemeteries” looked like cow pasture (complete with cattle) and undeveloped fields. To her credit, the historian did get a county tractor to brush-hog the worst of them.
Dax and my job was to find every grave there if at all possible to document the cemetery. In doing this I learned a lot of interesting facts about graveyards and various cultures. One nifty fact was that the orthodox Jewish culture does not believe In embalming and want a very basic box to return to the earth. This would make their graves very similar to clandestine graves where the “bad guy” just can’t bring pall bearers and a coffin. So, get your dog good at working such graves and …..well, the dog improves at finding possible crime scene graves. Working lots of these cemeteries also taught me what conditions made scent more accessible to the dog and what conditions don’t. I can remember one particularly cold morning when Dax and I arrived at dawn after a 3-hour drive. The air temperature was in the teens. I put Dax’s water bowl out and 20 minutes later had to break the ice out of it. Dax and I were struggling. The sun came out and the dark soil in this area suddenly warmed up quicker than the air. Where Dax had found two graves in 20 minutes, we found some 30 more in the next 20 minutes. Oh yea, the wind was 30 mph or so as well. Dax learned (on her own) to hold her head at a certain angle to work with the wind to make the finds.
Over the years, I’ve been lucky to work with some native American tribes to help them recover their ancestors burial sites. Each nation has their own unique cultural practices and it behooves the dog handler to spend time with those asking for your help to find out how their ancestors would have been buried. Some follow Christian beliefs, but some believe in letting nature de-flesh the remains for months before burying the skeletal remains. Some of the graves are shaped as in a typical American cemetery with the six-by-three-by-six hole, but others dig a round bowl grave with the remains laid out as they saw fit. As the grave becomes the container for your scent source, the grave can become very important. The soil of the area becomes important. Bury someone in sand and the scent will diffuse out a long way from the remains. Bury someone in high clay content and at times the scent is contained while at others it is totally masked due to moisture content. Hopefully, it’s becoming clear that to become proficient at finding graves, it helps to get a lot of training in with as many variations as possible so that both you and the dog become versed in the task.
On the weekend of September 26th, Murphy and I got to go play with Bonnie Guzman and Porter. Bonnie has posted on her before as terrierlvr. Porter was selected using a system like mine that Bonnie applied to her choices. I have to say that Porter rocks in HRD. He’s one of those dogs that just has a blast working scent and he’s very good at it.
We were able to work two different cemeteries in Denver. One is where remains were moved from a large cemetery that is now a park. When remains are moved, many times they only move some of the remains as the coffins might fall apart, the remains might fall apart, etc. A lot depends on the age of the remains to be moved. In such cases, if you know the original site and the moved site, you really have two training areas if you can get permission to work your dog. If at all possible, when starting it helps to have someone that knows where all the bodies are buried, literally. You can’t go by headstones as many times when a body is moved, the stone stays…shipping costs a large rock….it’s cheaper to buy a new stone at the new destination. Also, many times relatives can wait years or decades to purchase a stone for Uncle Abner. One then has to hope the cemetery caretaker knows exactly where that grave was. In other words, sometimes stones get placed nowhere near the grave.
Many times when working graves, you start noticing after the fact the depressions where the graves have collapsed. A moved grave and an intact collapsed grave often look the same. That’s where a trained dog can be helpful. Some cemeteries that I’ve been asked to work requested the dog’s services because they would dig a new grave in what was supposed to be an empty plot only to find it was already occupied.
So, one cemetery we worked was a historic cemetery. We found a bare area with few stones and decided to see how Murphy would do. I should note that my previous dogs and I got into a rhythm when working cemeteries where the handler’s job is to keep a dog on a line. The handler has to be very careful not to cue the dog or talk it into something not there while keeping the dog focused searching an lane of ground that the handler defines by their walking backwards and drawing the dog. As the dog is possibly going to be making a lot of finds, it’s not uncommon for the alert/indication to get shortened. Dax would simply get to the point where she’d just stand over the grave in a very pronounced halt. If I ignored this, then she would bark and touch. Any full indication takes effort on the dog’s part. Let’s say you have your dog do a down on each find and you work a cemetery with 150 graves. The dog will quickly get fed up with “down-up-down-up-down-up ad nauseum”. Most dog teams work out an acceptable routine. My dogs quickly learn that a flag must be placed before we continue, so often I throw the flag into the ground at their feet. I’ve seen some dogs with handlers with poor aim that would halt and wait until the handler placed the flag where the dog had meant for it to go. We could all hope for such a dog.
As I’ve promised to do some cemeteries in Oklahoma this fall, I’d asked Bonnie if we could do some cemeteries. Once Murphy got into rhythm with me we started to move over the area in lines and shifts. Murphy would halt, touch a spot, I’d toss a flag, and we’d move on. When we ran out of flags, we stopped and looked around. We had a identified three rows and six columns of graves with some graves missing. Suddenly the earth with patchy grass had imaginary headstones rise out of the ground and the cemetery took form. I consider this the best part of working cemeteries as it’s like the past comes alive. Any and all of the flags can be confirmed with either another dog or probing the edges of the grave for soil density changes. I traded IM’s years back with a dog handler that now claims to be one of the “historic gurus”, hosting historic experiments when we’d been doing this for years. I asked him respectfully, “so, what’s an average rate of finds for you and your dog?” He stated that over six hours that he and his dog might find 30 graves as he stopped after each grave, measured it, probed along all four sides, wrote it all down……the dog is tied up over to the side…. Basically the dog had to be restarted 30 times. I don’t think he believed me when I told him we’d had a competition to see how many of us could flag a hundred graves in an hour…..some had headstones after all, it wasn’t that hard. I should point out that I don’t care for most competitions in SAR dog work as I think it can distract the dog handler from the real task at hand. This was an impromptu decision on all our part in a cemetery where about 12 dog teams were all working the same 150 (or so) graves at the same time, i.e. our dogs were all working off-lead with us amongst other dogs doing the same thing. Imagine an agility trial where they start each dog team 15 seconds apart through the same course….. If the handler and dog are focused, they are barely aware of the other dog teams and instead focused on each other and the scent. It was very cool.
Oh yea, headstones. You’ll find out that when you start that your dog will want to indicate on the headstone. The marble headstones absorb scent over the years and can appear to the dog to be the strongest scent source there. I only accept a headstone if it had either been misplaced in the grave, fallen down into a collapsed grave, or it’s an infant grave and the grave is most likely under the stone itself. You have to get the dog to focus on the ground and not the stones. Be consistent and don’t accept indications on the stones and the dogs quickly blow them off for the graves. This is important in cemeteries as often times a stone can be for multiple graves. Square headstones that point up may have four to eight graves around it (think tic-tac-to with the stone in the center). Allowing the dog to indicate on the stone means you could miss up to seven graves.
So, that goes into the next situation, possible tight overlaps. The worst cemetery overlaps Dax and I worked was one town’s cemetery where the townsfolk were very frugal. They buried deaths sequentially regardless of family. They buried one coffin butt-up to the side of the next coffin. My historian at the time knew this going in, but chose not to tell me. I tend to let the dog wander a bit at the start to acclimate before we get down to business. Dax started shifting her head back and forth, looked at me, scent again. Suddenly Dax put both her front paws out in front of her in a splayed form and barked. I looked at this confused and commanded, “show me.” Dax then alternated paw taps with first the left and then the right exactly over where she’d splayed. I sighed and turned to the historian and said, “I don’t know what’s going on, but my dog tells me there are two graves right on top of each other.” The historian laughed and shook her head in wonder, said she wasn’t sure what we would do, but that Dax was right on and the whole cemetery was that way. So, depending on how many people a family wants to crowd into that family plot, there could be many finds and the dog has to work out the overlap to identify multiple burials. This is one reason why teaching overlaps with other sources in a controlled environment is essential.
This takes us to the other cemetery Bonnie took us to. She found what I’d requested, a huge Jewish cemetery. I decided to let her run Porter first. We went there in the afternoon and I expected the temperature differentials would be against us, but this is Denver and other factors came into play. Denver had enjoyed an unusual run of rainy days just prior to our arrival. Denver can be very dry and on this day the humidity was dropping fast. While the temperature differential was against us, the humidity of the soil was much higher than the air and the evaporation caused scent to come out of the soil. This was a beautiful cemetery, well taken care of with lush grass, trees, cedar bushes, etc. Odd thing about vegetation and graves, the roots bring up the scent of the remains and it comes out the leaves and bark. Porter became like a kid in a candy store and Bonnie watched on helplessly as he raced about, sometimes pausing to roll in lush grass near a grave. He would go under trees and his eyes would glaze over. I let this go on for a while then suggested at this point that Bonnie had to enforce boundaries to contain Porter’s wonderment. After that he did great. We returned the next morning to a different lot but same cemetery. Starting out the finds were easy, but as the air warmed we could both tell that the dogs were having to work harder, humidity no longer there to see us past the negative temperature differential.
Bonnie and Porter did get to work a challenge that morning as I spotted three graves butted up to each other as marked by their stone. I challenged Bonnie to get Porter to recognize that there were three unique graves there. After time and frustration on both their parts, he came through….Porter rocks.
We also had both dogs work at the same time tate next day. This was something I had to learn to do with my dogs early on as described earlier. The dogs are there to work, not to play. That means they may have to get to the point where they are working adjacent areas and ignore each other as they walk very close to each other locating different graves. It was common that we’d have someone flag an area then have another dog team move in behind them to confirm (or deny) a flagged grave; Thus, the dogs had to be trained to ignore the flags as markers. You had to train your dog to see a flag as a possible “gotcha” as well as a clue.
My wife is (what I call) a “rabid genealogist”. While many catch this bug in their retirement years, my wife started in on it at 17. She’s published multiple articles in a respected genealogical journal. She researches both her lines and mine(when hers grow cold for a bit). Through her I found my first historian that was essential to training Dax on cemeteries. I’d walked many cemeteries with my wife, helping her collect tombstone information, before I ever started working HRD. It wasn’t until I started working Dax in cemeteries though that I came to realize that a lot of that empty ground out there isn’t so empty. There are people that make it their hobby to document the cemeteries in their area. You can easily find them through a web searches on genealogy, grave projects, …cemeteries. Finding one that will be patient with a budding dog handler might be harder. My first historian had a grant to reclaim all the cemeteries in her far western Oklahoma county, so she got partially paid to be out there with me on pre-dawn Sunday mornings, sometimes in extreme cold and sometimes in very hot conditions. We had to plan ahead to hook up and basically, I took what the weather dished out. Working HRD is only rarely an emergency though, so with snow storms we could mutually call it off. My point is that I was lucky to find Mrs. Fox to work with over four years, documenting all the cemeteries (I think we got them all) in Ellis county. To do this right, you will need to work out a deal or some quid pro quo with someone that DOES KNOW WHERE ALL THE BODIES ARE BURIED… to make sure you don’t talk your dog into empty graves or headstones. If you can find a large cemetery that goes back centuries with excellent documentation that wasn’t lost in “The Fire of 18XX” then that could work as well. You will eventually need to branch out to other cemeteries. Eventually, you’ll be working blind. When that time comes, I’d still have those “knowns” handy to check or calibrate your dog on periodically.
The rest of the weekend we worked our dogs on vehicles, but that’s for another post.
Regards,
Jim
