questions again

[rthonor]

I am sure you covered this but I still am not 100 percent clear. Here are my thoughts and questions:

1. If the dog is green but understands the scent, and it by passes a known source- do you let it continue on or recall the dog back to the area?

2. If you (hypothetically) were in a place where am entire body had been the DAY BEFORE, and your dog showed much interest but not an alert- is that acceptable or should you expect an alert?

3. Ok, this one really happened - dog is young- 1 year old and in my opinion knows the scent. 4 soureces were put out and she found them except for the last one, which was in an old camp fire. She showed interest but that was all. I did not make an issue. However , some say that I should have gotten her to alert, but I felt like she did not understand it with the burnt wood and ashes. Maybe I was wrong.

[oksaradt]

Loaded questions today.
1a - has dog been imprinted on a similar source, ie scent components in similar/close state of decomposition?
1b -was dog given multiple directions to pick up scent? How do you know the scent was there for the dog to pick up?

These issues address how many handlers teach their dogs that they will find the source for them creating a dependent dog.
IF you know the dog has been imprinted on the type of source AND IF YOU KNOW the dog has located the scent.....to source....then no, don't let it leave the area. Don't direct it, but either direct it to stay in the area or correct it IF YOU THINK the dog had the source but didn't alert.

To be sure of this situation, place the source in a location that you know is conducive to scent.
Example, let's say that someone put dried teeth in a serrated mason jar with the lid down on the ground where very little scent can escape. I've had novice problem setters that just didn't know any better set up a blind like this and then smirk when the dog can't find it....they don't know any better. They don't know they set up a difficult problem that would be workable in say a day or two when the scent can migrate out of the soil and back out.

So, let's say that someone (even you...I've thrown jars to avoid my scent and had them land in bad ways) set up the source to severely limit scent where as real life would have the source with no container at all AND you force the dog to commit to the source with an alert. YOU run the risk of training your dog on alerting on the container....make sense?

Over the years, I've learned to allow my dogs multiple directions to locate scent before I pass judgement and that migrates to question 2.

2. Both myself and another handler that posts on here got to experience the result of looking for a bone I'd set out the night before in a suet cage only to have a ?coyote? take it for a late night snack. When I set out a source for overnight, I use landmarks to remember where it was. When the other handler's dog showed scent behavior but could not target, I began getting suspicious and went looking for where I thought the source should be. No joy.
Sooooo, we got Murphy out and had him work it. My ultimate hope was to get my bone back if it was still in the area. Murphy took us to exactly where the bone had been and did a touch on the soil like it was a buried. I did not reward him. I verbally cooed and stroked him, communicating to him that I knew he'd done his job, but no source means no reward. We then searched the rest of the area in 100 feet or so to see if my bone was close. I've lost a total of two bones to vermin over 12 years, so I consider it the price of doing business. It was a historic level that had been disarticulated from a university specimen, so if a dog drops it on its owner's doorstep, a panic won't ensue.

So, more to your point. You are eluding to a body burn and possibly cadaver dirt. Again, you are asking a loaded question. I've had law enforcement try to help me out and take me to a location where a body had been so that I could collect cadaver dirt. I'd run my dog over it and she'd show minor interest at one location, look at me like I was trying to set her up, and move on. That told me that she had scent with no source. I asked the LE in this case if this was a secondary crime scene, i.e. a body dump where the deceased had been killed elsewhere. They noted that it had been dumped, probably just 30 minutes prior, but was probably recent dead and no decomposition.....i.e. no blood, little decomp to go into the soil....

Let's say someone died in a motor vehicle accident, making a mess all over the road. You go there the next day and the dog doesn't really like the road, but really likes along the road. Many areas will hose down the road after an accident, washing any remains into the soil.

Your question eludes to the skill level and training of the dog. My dogs are trained for buried remains, old and deep, so their learned level of accepted scent level is much lower than say a dog that is trained to find a body in the woods. You have to know your dog's level. If you force an alert on your dog when there isn't anything it recognizes, they you run the risk of creating a false alert. YOU MUST KNOW WHAT IS THERE IF YOU COMMAND AN ALERT...becasue you are imprinting in that situation. If you don't know, then don't push it.

I only use cadaver dirt that I KNOW the particulars and I KNOW a body had been there for a very long time.

The thing to do is train train train on known situations and to build a relationship with your law enforcement such that they will call you up to come to a scene. AFTER the crime scene is opened up and AFTER the coroner/M.E. collects their body AND LE says you can, then you can run your dog over where YOU SAW the body. IF the body was wrapped in a sheet and this is to be discarded, see if you can get the sheet. If there are fluids on it then you have a viable source. IF there are no fluids, dispose of it in a safe manner, i.e. burn it. You can run your dog past it where the dog doesn't know where the sheet is and let the dog tell you if there is any human remains scent on the sheet, but don't imprint if you don't know. If you have a more experienced dog team in the area, let them work it blind first and then split the sheet with them. As a human remains detector dog handler, you must be 100 percent sure of the sources you imprint your dog on and then request they tell you about later.

3. Young dog means you have to teach it what you expect it to work in. If you are going to do camp fire remains, go to a park with lots of camp fires (out of course) and place a source in one. I prefer to only put charred remains in such situations as that seems more fitting, but people go crazy when they set up problems. Run the dogs over the entire area allowing the dog to explore all the campfires to learn their scent picture and then allow the dog to work on the loaded campfire. At that point the dog should be able to filter out the burned wood from the human remains. Once the dog gets this, then slowly complicate by putting charred animal remains in one of the other camp fires. Next complication would be human remains in one, charred animal remains in another, sweet delicious grilled hot dogs in a third. No snacking is allowed and no alerts on the non-human remains. This is always teaching the dog until you are confident in the dog. AT that point then you can let someone set you up a similar blind with any or all of the complications that you feel the dog can deal with.

Never force an alert on your dog. Help the dog to locate scent by changing directions in the area. But to force an alert means you know better than the dog on what scent is in its nose when you say "Tell ME!" To force an alert is more likely to create a false indication on your dog that will burn you on a real search. If you wanted to force an alert then I'd have taken the source out of the campfire and placed it where we could imprint such that it was obvious the dog had scent and was targeting.

Don't fault the problem setter. They gave you a nice training program to add to the rest of your environments. But, realize that you are the only advocate of your dog. It's your butt if the dog false alerts, not the all-knowing helper.
Even at seminars, especially with me, if I tell you to do something with your dog that you are uncomfortable with then ask why. If I can't explain it to you sufficiently then politely decline. You can always ask me to demonstrate with my dog. That's why I bring one along. If the instructor doesn't have a dog to demo with then.... I have set up problems that I thought were easy and turned out to be boogers. I have no problem running my dogs first on problems to see if they are workable (for my dogs). It shows what the scent is doing and the dog handler can then understand how to read their dog better. If my dogs struggle then we can change the problem for the other dog teams. The goal should never be to compare dogs, but to improve all dog teams skills. Because, on a real search, the dog is the real expert. At that point, I'm simply the area manager. Handlers that think otherwise end up making mistakes that could cost us all in court.


Hope all that helps,

Jim

[rthonor]

that confirms what I thought. Thanks, its clearer now and I think I know how to answer the question when people tell me I am teaching my dog not to commit if she leaves the source:)

[bonefinder]

Another SUPERB review and refresher course. Textbook worthy.

[tempe507sar]

Has any one else tried this? We took a new paint can (you can buy them at home depot) put in tissue, blood and bone. Used a nail to punch holes in the lid and then placed it in a home that the local Fire Department was going to burn as a practice. The Fire Department burned down the home but before we could retrieve the can, the home owner used a bobcat to start cleaning up the site. the dogs worked through the disturbed site and located the can (burned and crushed flat) - it was a great training and we've reused the can in other situations.
Karla

[oksaradt]

The sterile metal paint cans are a viable container for training. When using them, be sure to put a blank out as well so that the dog doesn't learn to simply find the metallic smell rather than what's in them.

Also, always be aware that containers mute the scent as you create a small port of the scent to escape from. When ever possible, try using containment systems that allow maximum scent diffusion out into the environment without losing your scent source. When training with bones and teeth, I use no containment at all for large bones and suet cages for small bones if I'm concerned about the dog possessing my source.

Unless you are searching a car fire, most house fires leave a lot of the body intact with parts that are shielded from the fire not singed at all. Many people also die my smoke inhalation and are not burned at all. Dogs are a great asset when searching a house fire for remains as often human remains blend into the debris as it falls around them.
Car fires tend to be very hot, so often skeletal extraction is required. If we're lucky, the skull is intact so that we can identify the victim through a forensic odontologist and recent dental records. If no skull, plates from fractures, artificial knees, and hip replacements often have serial numbers on them that can conclusively identify the victim. Having the flesh been literally burned away from them, these artificats will also have HRs scent to them to aid in your search.

As a death investigator, I'm often the one stuck in the charred remains of the car sifting for what ever I can find in hopes of identifying the victim. If you have access to a junkyard or impound lot where they would tow the totaled burned-out vehicles, I'd suggest you consider training in or around them with charred remains. Just be very careful as they can be hazardous with sharp edges hidden by burned materials. Also, if you have access to an experienced HRD dog that's worked such environments then I would run the dog over the car before you every place any remains as there might be some in there already. It's very difficult to know what might have absorbed HRs in the fire. Preferably no one was in the car you intend to work when it burned up, but it's better to know up front. You might not need to plant anything at all. You can research the accident if you have connections with the law enforcement agency involved, but sometimes even they don't know someone was in the car because the fire was so hot and the incineration was so complete. Also, no one had to be in the car at the time of the fire, but it could have been a primary crime scene with blood in the cushions. When it burned, these would become charred remains in the ash. The bad guys may have simply burned the car up to eliminate evidence of a crime.

Just an FYI, the temperature of a fire must exceed 1500F to completely burn a human up. Most creamtoriums approach this, but routinely require the use of a tool called a bone crusher where what's left is literally crushed down to dust.

Jim

[tempe507sar]

I never thought of a junkyard as an ideal location to train but now I 'm going to ask around and see what might be available. that's an interesting training tip, thanks!
Karla