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Post by zulu on Jun 28, 2010 22:10:49 GMT -5
considering some backyard detection work here
I'd like to try to train a yard dog to indicate on people who have/smell like dope
or like if it's on a vehicle would be good, too
I see the commercial scents vary WIDELY in price, & cost effectiveness is always a consideration here
any suggestions as to what brand I should buy?
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jacks
Junior Hunter/worker
Posts: 28
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Post by jacks on Jun 29, 2010 6:30:46 GMT -5
Zulu....unless you are TIA give me a PM and Ill hook you up with the guy who can help you out here. Last time he mentioned it he has pounds of the stuff you are looking for and no prospects on using it. Training aids only. Has the big 4, explosives Fred be dead and all kinds of stuff
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Post by oksaradt on Jun 29, 2010 9:05:24 GMT -5
"smell like dope" implies residual scent and most narc dog handlers see this as going down the path where their dog is labeled as false alerting.....at least the ones that I trade notes with.
If you want to train a dog on narcotics then you have to apply for a DEA permit, get a drug safe, and keep a log of your material.
On the Pseudo materials, I have no esperience with the narcotics products (if there are any). With HRD, pseudo or Sigma tends to train the dog on only a few components in decompositionas well as training the dog to indicate on the accellerant carrier the chemicals are in.
Most narc dog handlers train their dogs for four or five narcotics that are prevalent in their area.
So, let's say you train your dog on marijuana, ectasy, tar heroin, and meth. Dog doesnt' tell you which drug it found. It tells you there's one of the four present. So, a pot head comes on your land.....more of a nuisance than anything else. A meth-head comes on your land and sees your dog going ballistic on his vehicle is probably a good way to get shot at as paranoia is a major side effect. Unless you are law enforcement, you now have lots of 'splaining to do if you shot back in self-defence......heck, even L.E. still have to explain themselves, especially if they were a better shot and the suspect dies.
If I wanted a dog trained for something useful on visitors, I'd consider a dog trained to passively alert on guns and explosives......i.e. the dog calmly walks around the guys vehicle sniffing...you can say, "look at that, you must have hit a skunk." Dog downs at the guy's trunk and commits. Now you know he might have gun back there. Not a crime, but good to know.
There are civilian groups that do narc work for schools and businesses with their dogs, so that might be a viable side-job for you. I'd see if you could locate some of the local narc K9 handlers and buddy up to them to see if they'd let you train with them. One of the posters on this thread trains with local officers letting them set up her HRD blind problems. This way you can observe their technique, learn the right way and wrong ways, legal ramifications, etc.
With narcotics work, it's always best to look a lot before you leap.
Jim
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Post by zulu on Jun 30, 2010 21:11:15 GMT -5
Ill hook you up with the guy who can help you out here. I appreciate the offer, thanks not to be "paranoid" but my gut says get a receipt from a licensed equipment dealer "smell like dope" implies residual scent and most narc dog handlers see this as going down the path where their dog is labeled as false alerting.....at least the ones that I trade notes with. I would like a yard dog to indicate on residual contact, but I certainly won't have him attacking pot smoking teenagers; & I'm definitely not looking for a reason to shoot anybody I'm thinking a passive-ish "up-speak" (whatever comes natural) would be good. "My dog indicates that you either have in your possession, or have recently exposed yourself to narcotics. Either way you're not welcome here on my property, & I'm asking you politely to leave now." At which time if he ain't already gone, we kick it into trespasser mode. I couldn't possibly care less what consenting adults choose to consume within the privacy of their own homes, but I am responsible for everything that happens within mine. If drugs ever come around here, I want to know about it post haste. With narcotics work, it's always best to look a lot before you leap. I appreciate the advice if you have any more I'll appreciate it as well
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jacks
Junior Hunter/worker
Posts: 28
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Post by jacks on Jun 30, 2010 21:47:56 GMT -5
the substances are from sigma aldridge and dps. I suggest you take a look at Goose Creek ISD v State Of Texas before you travel very far. Might also take a peek at the occupation code too. All states are not the same with their legal requirements. If you are not TIA but in Texas look at the above. Hill vs State of Texas will open you up too (1997 14 Court of Appeals) In addition to Jims suggestions, in Texas you are going to want DEA, DPS and then a private sequirity license. You can be felony jailed easily by a hard ass DA/CA for "poaching" on their terrain. Best of luck with it
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Post by oksaradt on Jul 2, 2010 11:14:31 GMT -5
From what you've described TD as your end-product, what I would do is see if you could train with local law enforcement that already has the materials and the protocols. Find out from them your state laws. But realize this, unless you keep training logs with all results, positive, negative, and confusing, then your dog is just a pet that happens to react when drugs around. You can never use it in a court of law for your protection. You wouldn't be testing the dog and all that entails, so......
Sooo, schmooz up your local law enforcement and offer to do decoy work for them in the body suit in trade for letting your selected dog train after theirs are done with the agreement that you can't do anything with the dog except work on your own land for your own knowledge.
If this appeals to you, then I'd suggest you train an alert much like many of the airport dogs are trained for, passive alerts that most people don't even realize is going on. If the dog sits or downs next to someone then suddenly airport security quietly appears and asks the individual to step inside the office for a thorough strip search for whatever the dog was trained to find. The alert has to be something the dog would not normally do on its own to be significant to you but appear natural to anyone else.
Going the paperwork route is going to be a large investment for personal home security.
Jim
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Post by zulu on Jul 2, 2010 13:15:33 GMT -5
your dog is just a pet that happens to react when drugs around. [ ] you can't do anything with the dog except work on your own land for your own knowledge. precisely If the dog sits or downs next to someone then suddenly airport security quietly appears and asks the individual to step inside the office holey cats! thanks for taking the time to talk me through this ok, the positives of a yarddog that indicates in the unlikely event that contraband someday appears here on my private property are attractive to me BUT, life is long the negatives of said dog potentially leading one of his handlers to it out in public, say 5 unforeseen years down the road, TOTALLY outweighs any aforementioned positives I hadn't thought of it as "training an airedale to hunt contraband" however I realize now that's exactly what I'm proposing the potential unintended consequences here are quite "sobering" no pun intended & thanks again, Jim edit: ok, perhaps I should just get some of this, & just tell all my neighbors it's psuedo dope www.elitek9.com/Sigma-Pseudo-drowned-victim-scent-P7184/productinfo/SD33/ that way I still get to evaluate my dog's nose a little bit, and word still get's around town that I have dope dogs out here sounds like a win - win to me
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Post by oksaradt on Jul 2, 2010 14:19:22 GMT -5
TD, Realize that letting it be known that you have "dope dogs" can potentially be drawing a target on them. If there is a lot of drug activity in your area and those in the business see your "dope dogs" as a threat, then you might start finding them poisoned or shot. Being married to a vet, I learned a long time ago that the police want to know when there's a run of poisoned dogs in a neighborhood because it usually means crooks are being pro-active on getting rid of the burglar alarms before they start hitting the houses.
If you are trying to keep the wrong element off your land, better to get the reputation that you have "big mean dogs" on your land instead of "dope dogs". Previously discussed Worf gave me an added perk as I walked him regularly for miles around my land. Everyone knew that I had a huge (no, they pronounced with a joisey accent HUUUUUgggg-uh) black dog. Many of my neighbors had break-ins. I've never had anyone step on my land without calling me first. Oh, I also used to have a mastiff that liked to chew tires on vehicles as they were moving. I'm sure that helped add to the reputation. He became mine because no one else could handle him.
If you want a dog that can tell you that someone's in the drug business, go for it. I'd not put it out in anyone's face like a challenge though.
If you can move through your woods in the dark without a flashlight and you have a dog that moves as quietly as you do, then it can leave quite the impression when you seem to appear out of no where and ask innocently, "Sooooo, what cha doing in my drive, aye?" Find a big dog with gold eyes and the effect is even better.
The guy that walks around town with a big gun scares the innocent and upstanding, but simply informs the wrong element that they need to get a bigger gun.....
Just something to think about.
Jim
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Post by ammomac on Jul 2, 2010 17:26:35 GMT -5
there some sound advice in there. Over the years I've had the opportunity to work with our military dogs scent training. (we were keepers of the explosive scent kit for them) when ever we'd train I was always actively involved with them versus just waiting for them to be done to reclaim the explosives.
they always had stories of the *contracts* that would be placed on their dogs that had reputations of excelling at their duties.
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Post by zulu on Jul 2, 2010 21:49:58 GMT -5
I was thinking more along the lines of word getting around the local high school rather than the mujahideen, but still...
it's definitely more food for thought...
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Post by ammomac on Jul 3, 2010 10:43:02 GMT -5
not sure where you are at, but here in Hawaii if I had a dog that alerted any time he smelled weed he'd never get his butt off the ground. ;-)
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Post by zulu on Jul 3, 2010 16:11:36 GMT -5
believe it or not I was an outlaw myself in a previous life nowdays I run a real tight ship
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