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drive
Aug 6, 2010 11:19:18 GMT -5
Post by rthonor on Aug 6, 2010 11:19:18 GMT -5
This question might be hard to answer being that we can not actually see the dog in question, but to you, how important is over the top drive , i.e.- dog that wants the toy NO MATTER WHAT??
I dont have dogs like that. I train with cops and utilize the dog for their use if ever needed. I have a dog that can find the source, play with toy briefly and then goes on about her day or to the next find if there is one out there. To policemen's way of thinking, she is a wash. To me, well, maybe she just doesn't want to play all day with a ball for the rest of the day.
I am asking your thoughts?
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drive
Aug 6, 2010 14:42:48 GMT -5
Post by oksaradt on Aug 6, 2010 14:42:48 GMT -5
There is more than ONE DRIVE. Realize that most LE are familiar with tracking dogs, bite dogs, narc, and bomb dogs. The latter two are almost always chosen via ball drive at 12-18 months. They are trained via the ball drive, the dog being convinced that the scent will lead them to the ball. Many are taught by the "poof" reward system where the handler never wants the dog to know the ball comes from him/her.
My dogs have all known the ball comes from me. I like it that way. If they are becoming distracted, I only have to squeak the kong and they are focused back on work. That being said, I do like high ball drive as it means I have a ready-made reward system built in , BUT
I have seen multiple dogs that had no ball drive what so ever that were great scenting dogs. One dog comes to mind, a heeler, that when I first met it I wanted to train it in HRD because it was so methodical. The handler had his heart set on finding live. This dog cared for only one human, it's handler. I simply capitulated as each handler dictates for their own dog and sent him on to the live-find people. The dog proved me right in that he loved scent and was very methodical, but proved me wrong in that all live-find dogs must be people crazy. This dog loved working scent and it loved playing ball with only one person, the handler. We worried about victim-loyalty and would try to get the dog to play ball with the victim, but it would simply wait patiently till we'd give the ball to the handler and then it was happy. One would think that a methodical dog would be slow, but it quickly adapted to searching for live scent by its own grid system then went back to methodical when it would get scent and drive into the victim. So, an exception......
Drives (and you will see disagreements on this from nearly every venue):
Ball/Toy Drive: The dog loves to chase a ball, catch it, and sometimes bring it back to the handler. Possessive dogs can be taught that bringing the dog back means a food reward. This what I do with my dogs. When they know we're done, they get to carry the kong back to the truck, house, base, where ever. I still trade for food on return as I've had searches where I thought we were done only to be sent out again.
Food Drive: Dog lives for food. A lot of HRD dogs are high food/hunt drive, i.e. they are driven to eat. Many would end up porkers if allowed. I know several HRD dog handlers that include as part of their puppy test a wienie slice tossed into high grass then they measure how long the puppy hunts for the slice and if it pursues to source with a self-reward. The down-side to high food dive without any other reward system is that the handler must always be on the guard that the dog may self-reward on the remains.
Prey Drive: The drive to chase a moving critter, live or not. Grey hounds are the best example of high prey drive as they are entirely visual and don't care at all if that mechanical rabbit smells like dinner. It moves, so they are driven to run it down and catch it.
I break down drive for the scent of decomposing remains versus live as I want the dog that obsesses on the scent of human remains. Such dogs (like mine) love to roll in anything dead. This is a known survival trait to mask their own scent such that they can hunt for dinner without their own scent giving them away to prey. While I don't like skunk, I consider dead armadillo the most noxious scent a dog can get into its coat.
So, to your question. A lot depends on how excited the dog is to make the finds and why? What does the dog expect in return? What is going to drive the dog to keep working in crappy conditions such as 0200 on the coldest night of February when they want my dogs to check ponds for a missing kid to make sure he didn't fall in and drown OR an ongoing ice storm where I put teeth out in trees and want to see if they'll work. We both return covered in ice. Myself with a smile on my face and the dog huffing with the ball in its mouth and the tail wagging furiously.
IF you have something that does trip this dog's excitement switch then you can use that as your reward system. I learned from one trainer how to be "HAPPY DAN" to get dogs all excited. He had a golden that depressed him because the only way it would work is if he became "HAPPY DAN". He was the dog's reward. Dogs that only work for their handler tend to run hot and cold with the handler which can be a liability. I can be walking out in crappy weather, sniffling my head off, but if I have the kong bouncing up and down in my hand the dog could care less if I'm "HAPPY JIM." In fact I tend to think they work harder if I'm feeling like crap as they think I'll give up after the first find and they can have the ball all to themself.
I would say that the best way to satisfy both your law enforcement and yourself with this dog is to find (if you can) what lights up its world. With some dogs it's a tug, a frisbee, a bringsel on your belt, on and on; Otherwise, you'll have to demonstrate that the dog does the work for the sake of the scent and it needs to be demonstrative in that work. You'll have to let your LE set up blinds and the dog proves them wrong. If not, you may have to do something else with it.
Hope that helped,
Jim
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drive
Aug 6, 2010 15:00:59 GMT -5
Post by rthonor on Aug 6, 2010 15:00:59 GMT -5
You have an odd way of summing up what I think to myself in the back of my head:) Basically, I have a dog that is smart enough and interested atleast to a point to find the source and if I can get her solid enough to be reliable, then the cops may not really care that the toy is not that important to her. On the other hand, if her drive is truly low, and the scent work is not self rewarding to her, she will not last when the going gets tough.
I think that is what you are saying...I will let you know her progress.
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drive
Aug 6, 2010 15:03:29 GMT -5
Post by rthonor on Aug 6, 2010 15:03:29 GMT -5
Also, she does get excited when she gets her toy..... just when she is finished with it, she is finished and she drops it.....and that is not what they want to see. She is supposed to (in their definition of drive) not ever drop it and be possessive of it.
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drive
Aug 7, 2010 19:00:18 GMT -5
Post by oksaradt on Aug 7, 2010 19:00:18 GMT -5
Ok, have to ask two obvious questions?
1) Is the dog allowed to play with THE TOY or any other toy when she's not working? And, is so, why?
2) have you considered taking the toy away from the dog before she's finished with it?
when I'm done with my dogs, the toys go with me and I play with them as I walk away to the point they are barking furiously as I've somehow deprived them of the beloved toys. Always leave them wanting more.
Jim
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drive
Aug 9, 2010 15:22:12 GMT -5
Post by rthonor on Aug 9, 2010 15:22:12 GMT -5
She does not have access to any toy except when we are working. I will work on leaving her wanting more but this is how our toy playing usually goes: When she finds the source, I toss her the toy, we play tug briefly and then if she wins it, she runs off with it and drops it. I try to let her win. If she loses her hold on the toy while tugging, I hold it up and she jumps in the air to get it. Then she drops it. If there is another source out, she will go find it and then we will repeat the above.
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drive
Aug 9, 2010 22:51:22 GMT -5
Post by oksaradt on Aug 9, 2010 22:51:22 GMT -5
Ahhh, ok, this sounds like an easy fix BUT it depends on you making the "sell". From what you've described the dog doesn't want to own the toy, it wants to tug. "Winning" the tug is boring and the dog quickly drops the toy. "Winning" should be used to mark the end of the problem set, but if it was me I'd do this:
I'd let the dog play tug for a find for 10-30 seconds then trade the tug for food with an out command. 10 seconds for an easy find, 30 seonds for a booger. Longer if the dog has worked it's butt off, made a major leap in problem solving, etc....it's a judgement call. The reward for this dog is the play...sort of a combination of toy and "happy Dan". This means that you must make the tug game very exciting. Use two hands to hold on, swing the dog around, whatever excites it.
I'd train the "out" separately from training first such that the dog doesn't think it's being punished. Have really tasty food treats to trade for the out.
Last find of the day, extra long play and now the dog gets to "win".
Give that a try and let me know how it works out for ya.
jim
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drive
Aug 9, 2010 23:44:18 GMT -5
Post by bonefinder on Aug 9, 2010 23:44:18 GMT -5
Building drive is sometimes something that has to be done over time, with some dogs, and a game made out of it. I totally agree that you must take "the toy" away from the dog BEFORE he/she loses interest. Also, you might consider a "two toy retrieval" game with your dog.....two toys that are identical......when your dog brings the one toy back, you exchange it for the identical toy......throw the toy, and expect retrieval. Tugging to excite the dog for the specific toy, etc. I live with a VERY VERY high toy drive dog, but this building of his drive did not happen overnight. He appeared to have NO interest in toys up until he was a good year or so old.....it was working with building drive, over time, that really enhanced what was already there. Take it one step at a time. What breed do you have? Bonnie
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drive
Aug 12, 2010 8:03:03 GMT -5
Post by oksaradt on Aug 12, 2010 8:03:03 GMT -5
One of the area search dog teams I work with did indeed step up a notch when we changed her over from one tennis ball to two tennis balls as a reward. Instead of a couple of throws with the one ball we kept the dog hopping with a new tennis ball flying past its head as it would come in with another. Even with that, the handler had to be advised to cut the dog off with two total rounds for a total of four throws if the dog had more problems to work. Part of this is to keep the dog's taste for the reward maintained and the other is to avoid burning the dog out on rewards rather than work.
I'm not so sure I'd label the training of a dog as building drive. I tend to think the dogs have the drive to start with. What we do is "sell" them on the idea that including us in on the "hunt" can be so much more than chasing a toy. For example, my 8-month old puppy is at that phase now where he thinks it's fun to find other dead things (non-human) and play keep-away from me with them. I have to walk a tightrope with him in that he's simply following his drive to find all things dead-and-stinky. If I chastise him hard for this it can cross over to human. Instead, if he does this I request a recall and thank-the-gods that he has a solid "here". He comes back to me and I remove the animal remains from him as I say "leave it" and then trade him with some great food treat as I praise him for a "good leave-it". I also have to worry that he'll get it into his mind that if he can possess animal remains that he might consider it fun to pick up a human bone to play keep-away with me. The image of my dog racing around an area with a femur in his mouth playing keep-away while I'm working a crime scene with law enforcement.......these are images that my nightmares are made of and that I train to avoid.
I do know from experience that if a dog is so-so on ball rewards (of any kind) and you have multiple dogs that you are working THEN you can use that to your advantage. You can sell the so-so dog on the reward by allowing them to suffer watching you work a dog with high ball drive...just can't get enough of that ball or you playing with them. When I'm training on a site that's new to the dogs, I might intentionally set up a problem near the vehicle just so I can work the high-ball-drive dog where the so-so dog can watch, play up the game, sell the game to the so-so dog with the other dog racing after the kong, jumping up in the air to snatch it on a bounce, making a big deal of it when the dog returns with lots of food and praise. This is not a one-time deal, but over time you can build the excitement with your consistency. It's a win-win as the high-ball-drive dog is having a great time working and the so-so dog is soaking up how this appears to be "be all you can be of dogdom" situation.
Jim
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drive
Aug 15, 2010 16:25:31 GMT -5
Post by rthonor on Aug 15, 2010 16:25:31 GMT -5
Based on some of your insights, I thought I would try exactly what you described- tug, let her win after a big game....and then get it and put it up for the moment. I think that its possible that I expect alot and as pointed out, she is very young- 1 year, and I do have a while to develope her.
I wonder if what Bonefinder said in the other thread, if it possible this might be a dog that likes to search for the sake of searching.......she always searches, and finds the source(we are at a very novice level) and often rolls in the scent pool. Is it possible that I am boring this dog? She is a belgian malinois by the way. rt
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drive
Aug 15, 2010 20:19:08 GMT -5
Post by oksaradt on Aug 15, 2010 20:19:08 GMT -5
No, what I said was for the problems reward with 10-20 seconds of tug with you that you end with an "out" and food reward. She doesn't "win" the tug till the end of all the problems and at that point you let go and let her do the victory dance. Later when you work a large negative area with a source at the very end then she could win on the find and it will mean a lot more to her.
Well, let's hope the dog searches because it likes the scent. The key is not having it roll in the source, but instead alert to you and target the source for you because she really likes the reward system you've cooked up for her. The dogs that love the scent make the best HRD dogs, but we have to convince them it's worth not snacking or rolling to play by our rules of the game.
Jim
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drive
Aug 16, 2010 6:02:23 GMT -5
Post by rthonor on Aug 16, 2010 6:02:23 GMT -5
ok, i get that. thanks, rt
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