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Post by theresa on Aug 5, 2011 12:28:00 GMT -5
I got this in a forwarded e-mail from a fru-fru dog list. I don't work protection dogs but even I know this is very wrong. If you can laugh at it DO. My question is - should this dog be PTS? ******************************************** "So I was at training today taking a break between classes and (friend) walked up with (dog), her bite trained Belgian Malinois. He was making his rounds saying hi to everyone, and when he got to me he decided I shouldn't be there. So, he bit. Aimed for my left bicep, luckily he missed. Unluckily, he got me square in the boob. Ripped my shirt up! I held and when he went to rebite (friend) pulled him back. He tore a hole in my shirt the size of a baseball, and ripped my bra in half. Aside from quite a bit of pain, bruising and a few deep scrapes, I'm ok. Honestly, I'm quite proud! Just thought I'd share my fun little adventure with you all! Hopefully that'll be the only one for quite some time!" [/b] And she replies: "Well, I wasn't leaning that far. In fact, I made a point to bend my knees to reach his head. I let him sniff me for a good 30 seconds before putting my hand out, and I didn't reach. I just flipped it palm up right in front of my Jean pocket. He sniffed it and set his head on my hand, so I started petting him. She said she had never seen him do that, ever, and he's around plenty of people all the time. This is a public environment and he is here everyday. It was just a knee jerk reaction to what he perceived to be threatening. When we set him up, we are just gonna drill him in OB and put him near me. He will only be corrected if he sees me and bares teeth or growls. I don't want him thinking im an easy bite! He had 2 other people pet him before me and they were fine lol. Anyway, I wasn't trying to start a dangerous dog thread, just wanted to share my story.  " ***************************************** Do you need an e-collar to enforce an OUT command? In a properly trained dog, the pinch collar and voice should work, do I have that right? Is this dog beyond salvation? [Modified to remove the person's name] |
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Post by thistlesdale on Aug 5, 2011 14:33:07 GMT -5
Dogs aren't supposed to perceive something as a threat and then act upon it. They are supposed to take cues from their handler or just sit there and shut up.
I agree with this guy
according to the dog, that handler is out of his league
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Post by theresa on Aug 5, 2011 15:49:36 GMT -5
So my question is, is the dog now unfit for anyone?
Back when I was a kid, my sister had a dog she taught to bite - he kept the neighborhood bully at bay, that is for sure. But parents don't like Fido doing the discipline, so we had to give Benji away. New kids figured out the bite trick real quick, and last we heard Benji went to live in the country. Now I reflect on what living in the country actually meant -likely PTS as he would not hesitate to bite - biting gave him power and was a fun trick to make bullies run.
So this gal's Mal knows how to bite, and obviously takes his cues as HE sees fit. Is he another Benji? Will this dog always be a loose cannon? Is PTS the only road for him, or could he be rehabilitated and trained properly so he would not take his cues as HE sees fit?
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Post by thistlesdale on Aug 5, 2011 17:31:17 GMT -5
IMO the world according to dogs is pretty simple: if I make my pack leader happy, life is good if I make my pack leader unhappy, he'll kick my azz therefore it all comes down to the handler  at some point, some dogs are indeed so hot, only the devil himself is equipped to deal with them but I seriously doubt this is the case here
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Post by ed on Aug 5, 2011 20:48:46 GMT -5
Below this excerpt maybe of help assessing the dog ,check out Sharp!
What is meant when we speak about the temperament of a dog? This term is very often used, but very little understood by the users.
The physical and mental characteristics or peculiarities of an individual dog, made evident through its reaction to physical and situational stimuli, that is, any change in its environment.
This definition is not just a theoretical concept it is a practical working tool. Davis’ concept of temperament has certain characteristics that cannot be separated from it.
Characteristics of Temperament
Temperament is primarily a function of the dog’s neurological makeup
Temperament is 100% genetic; it is inherited, and fixed at the moment of the dog’s fertilization/conception/birth
Temperament in the dog cannot be eliminated nor transformed from one type to another. It cannot change during the dog’s lifetime. It is the permanent mental/neurological characteristic of the individual dog. But there may be an overlap of different temperaments in the same dog. For example sharpness may be seen with over aggression or submissiveness with being temperamental.
Environment, Socialization or Training can modify the expression of an individual dog’s temperament, but they cannot transform it nor eliminate it. The dog will die with the temperament with which it was born.
In other words, the sum total of the dog’s neurological and physical matrix that finds expression as a result of environmental change (people, animal, physical context or situations), is its temperament. This view of temperament is objective in its definition, and clear in its physical expression, and for this reason will form the platform of our subsequent discussion.
Temperament is divided into two broad categories: Sound Temperament and Unsound Temperament.
Sound Temperament
The dog with a Sound Temperament is confident and self assertive. He is sure of himself and investigates what he is unsure of. He handles his environment with confidence and without fear. His approach to life and his environment is curious, assertive and investigative. If startled or frightened, he recovers quickly from his fright.
This wonderful ideal is not without its concerns. This dog makes an excellent pet and worker, when under control, trained or managed by a handler who is a secure pack leader. However if uncontrolled his self-assertiveness could lead to significant management problems. Nonetheless the mental balance of this kind of dog makes him a joy to own, and more persons need to learn to learn the skill to manage this exemplary canine. Having said this, it is clear that an older couple seeking a companion may be better served with a more submissive animal.
Unsound Temperament
The dog of Unsound Temperament does not display the above calm, confident, self assertive, non-fearful behaviour. There is a range of behaviours considered to be unsound, but the following list can be taken as a complete or almost complete list of the variations: Sharp, Shy, Sharp-Shy, Submissive, Temperamental, Hyperactive, and Overaggressive.
Sharp Temperament
A dog with a sharp temperament reacts (immediately) to individual environmental stimuli without thought. The dog does not consider consequences. It may jump sideways and run far away if startled by a slamming door, very reluctant to return, if at all. The sharp dog recovers, but slowly. The sharp dog may fearfully bark forever at the play of shadow across a doorway, or the light pattering of a small branch on the roof. If the stimulus is innocent and continuous, the sharp dog does not settle down and accept its innocence. It continues to react without thought. It will not investigate.
This dog may seem at first to be an excellent alarm dog, but extreme sharpness, coupled often with a lack of confidence, could make it a perpetual nuisance to neighbours and household members.
Shy Temperament
The shy dog is afraid of unfamiliar people, places and things. He is sensitive to noise and movement, and does not take initiative. The shyer the dog is, the greater will be the amount of fear displayed. This genetic/temperamental shyness cannot be cured.
Shyness may also be caused by improper environmental socialization or people experiences. This shyness may be reversed to some extent by proper handling and training, but avoiding such an outcome right from the start is preferred. Shyness must not be confused with submissiveness.
Sharp-Shy Temperament
The Sharp-Shy dog displays aggression based on fear; he is the classic “fear-biter.” Being sharp, he responds without thinking, and being shy, he is fearful. This combination produces a dog that bites at any unfamiliarity without thinking. Fear is a normal reaction in a normal dog to a perceived threat, but when the threat is over, the dog should recover quickly. The sharp-shy dog recovers slowly; its fear may even paralyse it, and it may bite if touched. It may be taught to adjust in a particular environment or situation, but when that situation changes, it will react again in fear and the behavioural cycle starts over again. The Sharp-shy dog can never be fixed.
Submissive Temperament
The submissive dog readily surrenders authority and control to it leader; in other words, he easily accepts human leadership. He tends to be meek and mild and non-threatening. He has no desire to be in charge, and readily does what is asked. This kind of dog makes an excellent pet and companion for most first time dog owners and the average family. The temperamentally submissive dog may be, but is not necessarily, a “wimp.”
Submissiveness is also a trait that may be produced environmentally, by abuse. This should not be confused with the genetic submissive temperament.
Temperamental
A dog with this temperament suffers from failure of its central nervous system. New environmental stimuli so overwhelm this dog that it may shake uncontrollably or roll over. The temperamental dog will empty its bladder and bowels seemingly unaware, in unfamiliar or stressful situations. This dog is not just afraid - it cannot cope - with the stress. Its nervous system is so overwhelmed that the dog loses control of its body and bodily functions.
The temperamental dog is not usually aggressive, but it is important to remember that there is a lot of fear in this dog, and the fearful dog may respond by biting.
This trait is one step down from submissive, and cannot be fixed.
What type of companionship can this dog provide? He may not be suitable for most homes but may be looked after by someone who feels generally compelled to offer and provide perpetual psychological coddling to this kind of dog. This dog is not recommended.
Hyperactive Temperament
The hyperactive dog is constantly moving, and generally moving fast. He constantly wants to move by running and jumping. If confined, he will pace incessantly and leap at walls, walk in circles or wag the tail non-stop. This hyperactivity is not normal but is the result of a metabolic malfunction (of the brain) that controls the body’s activity.
This dog could be thoroughly destructive if kept in a confined apartment or small space.
In some cases it may be difficult to separate temperamental hyperactivity from normal high energy in some dogs.
Overaggressive Temperament
The overaggressive dog reacts with more aggression than the situation suggests. This extreme behaviour is often directed toward the handler and is usually in protest for having been asked to do something the dog does not want to do. This dog does not turn off easily; he will come after you and hurt you. It does not accept human leadership.
An overaggressive dog should never be placed in a pet or companion situation. In fact if he is not in the hands of a professional handler, he should be put down.
Before ending this topic two other temperamental traits require our attention. They originate in the self-assertiveness of the dog (Sound Temperament) but may actually be looked upon as temperamental classes in their own right. These are the traits of Dominance and Independence in dogs.
Dominance
The dominant dog strives to achieve pack leadership. The more dominant he is, the less likely he is to accept human leadership and training. He is confrontational. Such a dog requires a skilled handler who can maintain pack leadership at all times.
Independence
This dog does not want guidance or affection from other dogs or humans. He does not encourage companionship; he cares nothing for praise or pleasing his handler. The independent dog keeps his own company, is self directed and self reliant; he is not affectionate.
Clearly, the independent dog would not make a good companion, and may function best as an out door “yard” dog.
A dog with significant dominance and independence traits together, is just a slide away from being over aggressive.
Even though critical periods, socialization and training may affect the temperament of a dog, they will never eliminate any of its effects.
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Post by thistlesdale on Aug 6, 2011 9:52:38 GMT -5
 some prominent protection breeders of the past believed it was necessary to linebreed over aggressive dogs, based on the assumption they would transmit "sound working temperament" to following generations the formula was pretty simple, sell litters to pet homes, sit back and wait for the most aggressive offspring to be returned, then use it for breedingstock IMO this is why the incidence of unsound temperament is so high today |
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Post by thistlesdale on Aug 6, 2011 9:57:52 GMT -5
IOW "watered down" over aggressive = sharp, etc
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Post by thistlesdale on Aug 7, 2011 13:05:34 GMT -5
ok, this is getting interesting. the consensus appears to be that various degrees of "sharp" are correct in various other breeds. so what's the consensus here?
on a scale of 1-10, 1 being downright blunt & 10 being razor thin, how "sharp" is sound airedale temperament?
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Post by ed on Aug 8, 2011 10:49:51 GMT -5
Just for fun I'd rank Airedales I've known for Sharpness on a scale 1-10
Brisco 5-6
Kasbah 6-7 (Import)
Curtis(one of Don's) 3-4
Rowdy 6 (Import)
Mac 5 (from Stews old male ) Danny
VS all my Giant Schnauzers 6-9
Mals 5-8
Czech Shepherds 7 and up
Labs 2-4
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Post by rickyjames on Aug 11, 2011 19:33:35 GMT -5
how would you define a "civil" dog? where would that fall in temperment?
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Post by ed on Aug 11, 2011 23:10:44 GMT -5
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Post by rickyjames on Aug 12, 2011 10:47:44 GMT -5
ed, i have enjoyed your posts. while it is very good info and you have cited good examples i disagree somewhat on temperment being fixed at birth. while you may be right that a dog is born a certain way, i believe that it is a sliding scale type of thing rather than fixed. there are extremes in both directions of course but i believe temperment can be modified with training....at least somewhat in my experiece.
i have seen weaker dogs strengthened by training. while this might work well enough for most sport work too much presure will eventualy bring out the dogs faults. that is why so many sport dogs can be run off the field. that is why most dogs are worked in prey drive, even weak nerved dogs can have good prey drive.
your videos of "civil"dogs were good and i understand your concept of attacking without being threatened but i look at them as just further extensions of protection training. one video showed the dogs first bite on the guys backpack instead of the guy. good dogs but still an extension of sleeve work.
my definition of civil is different, at least it is based on what was explained to me by some protection trainers. i tried training one of the airedale pups i bred once. he was about a year old and had basic obedience training at the time. the trainer tried to excite the dog with burlap and a sleeve. the dog just sat by my side uninterested in the props but watching the mans eyes. when the trainer got close enough to be seen as a threat the dog jumped at him and went directly for his throat totally ignoring the "props". the dog was proclaimed "too civil" for sleeve work. the trainers suggested a sport with a full bite suit. i did find a group that used a bite suit and worked him a couple times. the dog did much better on a suit but he was deadly serious, it wasn't a game with him. the guy with the bite suit moved away so the training stoped. i'm not sure he could have been trained to send and attack unprovoked like your videos but he was a very serious natural protector.
now right or wrong that is what was explained to me. the dog had sound nerves, played with kids, never bit anyone but if he percieved a threat he would alert the owner and protect naturally if needed. anyway that is how civil was explained to me.
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Post by jeffoehlsen on Sept 1, 2011 5:41:13 GMT -5
Quote: A dog with a sharp temperament reacts (immediately) to individual environmental stimuli without thought. The dog does not consider consequences. It may jump sideways and run far away if startled by a slamming door, very reluctant to return, if at all. The sharp dog recovers, but slowly. The sharp dog may fearfully bark forever at the play of shadow across a doorway, or the light pattering of a small branch on the roof. If the stimulus is innocent and continuous, the sharp dog does not settle down and accept its innocence. It continues to react without thought. It will not investigate.
This dog may seem at first to be an excellent alarm dog, but extreme sharpness, coupled often with a lack of confidence, could make it a perpetual nuisance to neighbours and household members.
This is a different definition of sharp than what I was brought up with.
I was out of dogs for a decade or so, and when I came back to it, sharp, as it is described here, is what we called a nervy dog. Sharp sounds so much better than shitter, I guess.
The definition I grew up with of sharp was a dog that responded to startling stimuli with a bite. They would bite the umbrella in the umbrella test, for example. You also saw maybe 1 or 2 of these dogs for every 2-300 dogs tested. I don't remember these dogs being unstable at all. They just bit first and were really really rare. I had a couple over the years, and they did produce nervy dogs in numbers that were high enough to stop that nonsense. I saw it one other time in a breeding, not mine.
Since I have gotten back into dogs and dog sports, I have not seen a single sharp dog......... my definition. Most peoples definition of civil is closer to what we called sharp, and most people are full of nuts when they describe their dog as "civil" as far as I am concerned. A dog that will protect his family in his territory is not civil in my definition, it is a good dog though.
I saw some people rating their dogs as far as "sharpness" That just does not sit well with me. It was a good thing if you really really needed it, like a police dog, or something. The few that I had, were a pain in the ass when they were young, as it is a twitchy sort of thing. People telling stories with their hands, the dog isn't paying attention, then sees threat where there isn't any, and you have a 5 or 6 month old dog to snatch up.. if you can. There is no way I am describing this well enough. It was just that one thing that was so stinking different. The dog was not odd or nervy, and after they got used to people most of that disappeared. They all bit the umbrella, went after it with a vengance, and then it was gone, and the dog turns and comes back to me, or one went and sat on the testers foot. Hopefully I didn't butcher the nuts out of this.
Maybe I should have just said I don't see this anymore. : )
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