sam
Hunter/worker
Posts: 96
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Post by sam on Mar 25, 2015 18:53:17 GMT -5
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Post by hicntry on Mar 26, 2015 11:51:33 GMT -5
LOL, I have seen that scenario play out too Sam. Funny, you just never can tell which way things are going to go when the fur starts flying. Something similar happened to me in one of those bar fights years ago. I ended up with the guy shooting me. I see that as defense. Police went to the hospital with me and we went from there to jail. That wasn't the way that day was supposed to go. Only thing I can say about that day now is that it is the only time I have been to a doctor since I had a steel plate put in my head when I was twenty one and I had to be handcuffed to the gurney....67 now. There are a million stories like that in the naked city..... and this was one of mine..... and the outcome is never predictable. Dragnet wasn't it? LOL
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sam
Hunter/worker
Posts: 96
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Post by sam on Mar 26, 2015 15:32:29 GMT -5
LOL....!!!!!! LOL......!!!!!! YOU MADE MY DAY BUDDY......
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Post by hicntry on Apr 1, 2015 12:18:12 GMT -5
Sam said, "I would suppose that in its mind, it finds it self rewarding....."
I guess that is as close to the answer we can get since so much has to do with our perceptions of what we, as individuals are seeing. I see my dogs as self rewarded when encountering game because they need no pat on the head or encouragement to be more than willing to search out more game and engage. They find it so rewarding it would be much more difficult to stop them from doing it. It comes down to me teaching the dogs that not all game is good game.....such as a ranchers cow. I suspect some dogs fall into this mentality with humans. These dogs need the training to inhibit the desire to bite people. They have to be taught to control that desire until there is a real threat. To put it another way for dogs like this, receiving praise and reward for NOT engaging, would tell me the bite is self rewarding. Dogs that are rewarded to TAKE the bite, while they are peforming the same task just as well, don't find the bite self rewarding....thus praise is given after the bite as encouragement. The question becomes, is one type of dog more reliable than the other? Also makes me wonder, as in the car jack scenario with Ed's Brisco, which course did the training take to achieve this level of reaction? Just for fun, was that reaction "defense" or was Brisco thinking "I am going to kick your a$$". Staying in the car and keeping the bad guy at bay seems to be more defensive to me. Jumping into the bad guys space to engage is another thing. Don
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Post by ed on Apr 2, 2015 9:41:51 GMT -5
Tough question Don,Brisco had a ton of sport training and the situations to the dog are basically choreographed. The car jack was totally unexpected to the dog and he launched through the open window.He had never sat in a car seat before and reacted very fast,had the bad guy on his back,pretty much like an NFL hit, when I yelled "out" he jumped off but was still focused and barking as the bad guy regained his footing. When I led him away he kept looking back. Seemed different than sport.
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Post by hicntry on Apr 7, 2015 14:38:18 GMT -5
Ed, you probably remember Jim Haley. He and his wife were here for a few days. We had a nice visit. Back to the discussion. The questions do seem to get tougher to readily answer as more and more training is applied. The lines start to get blurred and so much is left to our perception as to what we are seeing. In training we know that following specific progressions of handling will produce certain behaviors we are looking for......in a large cross section of dogs. Probably what would be considered more the average dog. We also know that those same methods do not work on all dogs. This is why I tend to question blanket responses when it comes to things like "all dogs go into defense". All dogs simply are not the same.
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Post by ed on Apr 7, 2015 17:33:33 GMT -5
Yep...I do puppy testing at HWA Nationals using a variation on NAVHDA instinct test....there is a huge range of responses to gun shot, appearance of a bird, animal track ,etc in very young dogs...marked differences and this is just within Airedales.
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Post by hicntry on Apr 8, 2015 12:19:25 GMT -5
Ed, some time back, I put a sequence of video clips on a bird dog forum. The clips showed 3 dogs going through heel training using Koehler. None of the dogs had ever been on a leash and all were about 1 year old and had to be caught to do the heeling exersizes. Two of the dogs almost immediatly started hugging my leg, tails tucked, to avoid any correction. The last one, with the same amount of time, which was about an hour, looked like a trout on the end of a 15' line. I mentioned that the only good dog was the one that was doing all the resisting. The trainers all immediately disagreed and voiced the opinion that the two dogs hugging my leg were the ones they would pick. They viewd the two weak dogs as more willing and easier to train. I realised at at that point, to many, the "average" dogs are better because they respond more uniformally to the universal training techniques. At the end of 2 1/2 hours of training, the stronger dog did everything better than the weaker dogs..... and was actually much happier doing the routines. The trainers still didn't like that dog because it took a stronger hand to get him to that point.
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Post by ed on Apr 8, 2015 16:52:39 GMT -5
Don when I was a kid(long time ago) a real fine bird dog trainer told me ,"Ya can tamp a hard dog down but hard to bring a soft dog up." Most of what we are saying depends on what you want your dog for ,hunter, pet ,guard,obediance trials etc. Putting a dog into defence usually requires threat. Dogs respond to threat by either submission and withdrawal or by aggression. Sometimes "territorial protection" can be interchanged with threat. Don't want to get into weeds on this but totally untrained dogs back tied will show amazing range of responses to approach of the suspicious bad guy.
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