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Post by gundermann on Mar 30, 2007 19:35:05 GMT -5
I'm not sure how well this will work for every dog but...since I don't have access to a coon every day I found some rabbit fur tugs online and Caesar loves them so I put some boatmans coon scent on it and at the end of the track I tie it up in the tree. That's Caesar's reward for following the track, he gets his tug back. I let him carry it around for a while and walk with it back to the house and then he gets his out command and has to give it up until he tracks again. He loves catching rabbits more than anything so it's a good motivator for him and he gets to bite something at the end of the track.
I tried it with my female yesterday on a 2+ hour old track and she was a bit disappointed that there wasn't something to eat or something to kill at the end of the track so we're back to food with her.
Rob
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jackie
Hunter/worker
Duke & Patty
Posts: 97
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Post by jackie on Mar 28, 2008 23:08:49 GMT -5
Rob, Just reading your post. Sounds like you track quite a bit, I'm new to it and just starting my airedale on tracking. I've read some of the stuff Maugh Vail has written on tracking and, like you I don't have access to a coon. So I bought a canvas tug and some rabbit scent. Probably best to start with food but might try it anyway. Seems like people use cheese bits or hot dog pieces a lot to start. Patty my dog, is about a year and a half old, she is really starting to get more into keeping her nose on the ground. She love to chase rabbits. She bays like a hound when she gets on one, but mostly is using sight. I live in open country so sight works well, but I want to start tracking. That's why I bought rabbit sent like you, but I'm afraid she will like it so much, if I ever get her to a trial and she has to follow coon scent she might quit it for a rabbit cross track. Any comments out there?
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Post by doitallairedales on Mar 29, 2008 6:39:18 GMT -5
Jackie:
Unless dogs are put thru scenting work early as pups, nearly all dogs start any sort of "hunting" with their vision. Sometimes it takes a while for a dog to realize they have a nose! In tracking, the best way to get a "deep nose" (nose plastered to the ground) on a dog is always lay the track with the wind at your back. If your track is into the wind, the scent gets lifted up and the dog's nose will follow it. I know how difficult it is to "manage" the wind, particularly on a long track, but you'll be surprised at how well it can improve the dog when you work the wind right. I check the wind using a lighter, some people use small bottles of baby powder.
No experience with fur but I'd assume if your dog loves to chase rabbits, she'd leave the coon track for it. You may have to curtail her running rabbits until she experiences how much more fun a coon can be. As I said, I have no experience with fur so take it for what it is worth.
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jackie
Hunter/worker
Duke & Patty
Posts: 97
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Post by jackie on Mar 29, 2008 17:44:14 GMT -5
Doitall, Thanks for the tip about the wind, I see your point. I think I will work her with the wind till she gets the idea, then switch to the wind at our backs to make it more challenging and to get her nose down. I'm also going to get some coon scent as well and a couple coon dummies for her to play with until she can see the real thing, that way she won't get too hooked on rabbits. Basically, for an airedale it seems like any critter that moves is a happy target. Thanks very much for your advice. Jackie
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Post by hicntry on Mar 29, 2008 20:00:39 GMT -5
Jackie, I trained Magnum and Odin to follow the phony scent buy making a 50 yd drag with the coon scent and putting small pieces of the individually wrapped cheese slices on top of the drag line. Sit back in a chair and let them figure it out. All most people do when they use a leash or sit there and try to direct them is prolong the agony. They will pick it up if they have it in them as it should be a natural thing to them...if you let them learn it. After all, they have the nose. Once they have a 50 yd track down, put the cheese pieces farther apart. When the dog is moving the track fast, lay the track with the drag and just put the cheese at the end but a full slice. Then get a wire cage and hang it so the top is about head high and put a whole piece of cheese on it. You want to get the dog used to seeing a wire cage. Gradually move the cage higher to get the dog used to looking up for it because it isn't natural for most dogs. I would say go buy a rabbit to put in the cage but, even if the rabbit isn't getting hurt, it may be illegal so teach the dog to speak on command...a lot. Since the dog can't reach the cheese at 10 ft(which is about as high as you eventually want the cage), So as you move the gage up in say 1' increments, he will have to bark until you get there there and lower the cage to where he can reach the cheese. Don't hand it to him. This keeps the dog focused on the cage. Hopefully taking the test with a coon in the cage, he will bark automatically because he will think that dang coon is getting his cheese. The thing is, improvise if you have to. Watch the dog, and change things a bit if necessary. The main thing is let the dog figure it out his self initially with the new track. He has the nose, not you. If you push the dog and stuff, it causes more confusion. Now, if the dog can't figure it out on his own, try obedience. ;D
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jackie
Hunter/worker
Duke & Patty
Posts: 97
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Post by jackie on Mar 29, 2008 23:05:18 GMT -5
Hicntry, Thanks so much for your detailed and good information, you pretty much nailed it for me, just what I needed to know. I'll follow your instructions to the tee. You have helped me before and with good results. I'll let you know how Patty does, I'm excited about tracking, and the way the economy is going it might just come in handy pretty soon. LOL. Jackie
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Post by hicntry on Mar 29, 2008 23:18:59 GMT -5
Jackie, I re-read my post and when starting with the cage, that is the top of the cage head high to the dog, not you. You want her to know where that cheese is.
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jackie
Hunter/worker
Duke & Patty
Posts: 97
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Post by jackie on Mar 29, 2008 23:37:00 GMT -5
Yea, got it, thanks again. Jackie
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Post by doitallairedales on Mar 30, 2008 6:33:09 GMT -5
Jackie,
If your dog starts to "meander" off the track, that will definitely be the time to use the wind at your back. My dog was trailing quite a bit but as soon as I made sure the wind was always at my back, he stayed right on the track.
Also, it may be six for one, half dozen for the other but I use hot dogs for tracks. I slice them dime-size and then microwave them a few minutes. That dries them out so they aren't at all greasy. I want the dog to be able to "Hoover" them up without having to stop to chew.
Are you planning to run your dog solo on coon?
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Post by hicntry on Mar 30, 2008 7:30:39 GMT -5
Are we talking tracking or trailing? I never worry about the wind because it changes and in the case of the coon test, who knows which way the air will be moving. What is interesting to do is lay the track and sit back and watch the dog. The quickest and easiest way to check the wind is to take a down feather and a piece of thread. Tie the feather to one end of the thread and the other end to the hat band or the hat itself. when the feather is hanging in front of you a short ways off the brim, you can constantly see which way the air is moving. When not concerned about the air, tuck the feather in the hat band. It's aways there and you don't need powders and such. Hunting dogs also usually trail down wind of the track so they can run....as in "runnng a track". The colder the track, the closer they run it. When it gets to cold to run, they tend to actually straddle the track and walk it like a blood hound. I have to wonder why it is referred to as "cold trailing" since they are really tracking at this point.
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Post by doitallairedales on Mar 30, 2008 10:22:10 GMT -5
I'm talking tracking here but in a hunting situation, I am sure it is 99.9% trailing. I just have Schutzhund on the brain these days. My GSD prefers to trail so I am really focussed on the "deep nose" thing these days.
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Post by hicntry on Mar 30, 2008 10:45:14 GMT -5
Ok, go for it and I'll ;D
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jackie
Hunter/worker
Duke & Patty
Posts: 97
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Post by jackie on Mar 31, 2008 11:44:44 GMT -5
As to whether I'm going to run our dog solo on coon the answer is yes, if I can find a coon I will, but only if the coon is in a cage at the end of the track, for now. We are thinking of getting another dale so then we might consider it if we were ever again in coon country. Right now we are in coyote and rabbit country, there are lots of cougers & bobcats too. What I have been considering is trialing for the three in one dog titles, I'm certainly just a new commer but it sounds fun and I like working with with my dog on hunting. I want to polish up my shotgun and start practicing as well. Jackie
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Post by Maverick on Mar 31, 2008 16:56:27 GMT -5
Jackie -
It sounds like you are wanting to train your dog to hunt 'coons and you don't have any. I don't understand the reasoning behind that.
Are you preparing for the national hunting tests? Then follow Don's advice. Just be aware that this test has little to do with actual hunting.
It appears that you are not Schutzhund training, so do NOT use their tracking methods. If you are actually successful, you will spend all your time *hunting* and no time *catching*!
So hunt what you can. If you have rabbits, start the dog on them. You are too new to be worrying about a dog "trashing" out on rabbits. You, and especially your dog, will have much more fun and actually learn many valuable lessons on hunting furred game. Your dog will learn much quicker with an experienced dog to start with, and you will learn much quicker with an experienced hunter to start with. That doesn't mean that you can't have a great time going out and chasing a few jack rabbits on your own. Though it is unlikely that you could catch one in their winter prime, there are always some slow, dumb, or young ones around that can be caught. If you take a gun and shoot some, that will definitely fire up the dog, especially if it is starting to get bored trying to catch something that always gets away. Though, a single catch will fire up the dog for a few hundred misses! A smart dog that never catches a jack will learn to follow the guns, and hunt (flush/chase) whatever is being shot.
If dog training is the fun part for you, then seriously consider agility or obedience.
Pete
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jackie
Hunter/worker
Duke & Patty
Posts: 97
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Post by jackie on Apr 2, 2008 16:59:51 GMT -5
Everyone thanks very much for your comments. To answer your questions, I have hunted jacks and I've shot a couple, Patty brings them proudly to me, and then later I let her eat them. So she has gotten a taste for rabbit and her enthusiasum is always high. Today we hunted about 3 miles of desert (me walking a fairly straight two miles, Patty quartering (therefore working about 5-10 miles back and forth) ahead of me. I use hand signals and my own mouth as a wistle to guide her, mostly she is a natural (read a little book called "Gun Dog" by Richard A. Wolters, and just finished "The New Complete English Springer Spaniel" by Julia Gasow & Edward K. Roggenkakmp III, also watched my dad train cockers and german shorthairs (should have paid more attention!) and he seldom came home from hunting empty handed. He also trained big rough dogs when he was young to hunt deer in California before that was outlawed.) Back to my story, Patty and I didn't see a one jackrabbit, but we both had a great time being on edge. She ranges out further than she should for hunting birds but in this open desert it works well for rabbits. What I'm interested in (as well as hunting on our own) is trialing, which includes the three tests, flushing, retrieving and tracking. I've contacted a trainer in our area for help with the water retrieve. There is a trainer in California that Phil (Hal) has recommended and I'm going to go see him, too. And I hope to meet up with Hal his very self one of these days. So the answer is yes...to most of your questions. The tracking/trailing in this country is a bit more tricky for finding a trainer, most people here just run their dogs on cats, and as Maverik said there is a big difference there from trialing. So I'm going to rely on what I have read (Maugh Vails disertation I found online) and I'm reading more and taking your excellent comments and see how it goes. And I'll get a live coon one of these days and use it, and I'm going to take Godfathers' advice and use the coon scent and a drag for training for now; wouldn't want a horse head ending up in my bed! I'm going to try the hot dog method and cheese method and see which she likes best, or switch on and off to keep it more interesting. I bought some rabbit scent but I don't think I'm going to use it, I'm going to get some coon scent instead and an AKC coon look alike for the wire cage, fairly well soaked up with scent. Maybe pull a string to make it move around, once we get get done with the cheese/dog trail. First though I'll get her going on the scented drag trail with the cheese/dog top layer using Godfather/Hicountry's advice. This is what I have come up with from all of the your comments. Again thanks for everyones' comments and the more the better. Who has the best coon scent? I'm having a hard time finding it here, may have to order online? Jackie
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