Coon tracking w/o the coon

[Maverick]

Jackie -

You have gotten a lot of advice from a lot of different people with a lot of different types of dogs doing a lot of different things. Cocker (Springer?) Spaniels and German Shorthair Pointers are 2 different types of bird dogs bred and trained to hunt game birds 2 different ways. Combining my advice and Maugh's advice is like mixing oil and water -- she wouldn't have my dog and I wouldn't have hers. I think you are trying to do way too much too soon.

Before you totally confuse your dog and give up, go out with some experienced people that hunt different game in different ways, and find out what you and your dog really like, and then start with that. Keep it simple, and you and your dog will be much more successful and happy. When you both have mastered that, then you can add something else to your hunting repertoire.

Mixing all of this advice together is a recipe for disaster! It is like learning to drive by learning on a farm tractor, 18 wheeler, automatic transmission sedan, 4x4, and Ferrari all at the same time before you even have a driver's license! Decide on something simple to start, and see how it goes.

Pete

[jackie]

Maverick,
What I think we have been doing is called "coon tracking w/o the coon brain-storming." So far it's even been w/o the dog. I'm taking your advice about not going too fast with my bitch; tracking the coon is going to be first. I'm going to be learning though ahead of her, so I'm going to be working with some trainers to get myself in better shape. This is going to be fun and work for me. Once Patty gets going good at coon tracking w/o the coon, she is going on to coon tracking w/the coon, once she gets good at that, then flushing and retrieving. I've been working on obedience. Right now I'm happy hearing about and learning about how to drive a farm tractor, 18 wheeler, automatic trasnmission sedan, 4X4, and a Ferrari all at the same time. I'm getting my hair blown back without messing it up. But I have to get my feet wet and coon tracking w/o the coon is first, that's why I'm here on this string. Thanks for your advice and you keep me posted and grounded. And I never thought about my Dad training so many different kinds of dogs, I didn't tell you about the sheep dogs, he just seemed to do it and bring home the bacon, but he wasn't a trialer, he used his dogs for meat and work, but he did use similar training methods, whistles and hand signals and he really enjoyed it and so did the dogs. I saw him training and using the bird and sheep dogs but I never saw him training his tracking/trailing dogs, probably because I was just a gleam in his eye at the time. Jackie

[hicntry]

"I saw him training and using the bird and sheep dogs but I never saw him training his tracking/trailing dogs, probably because I was just a gleam in his eye at the time. Jackie "

That is because, on real live game, a good tracking and trailing dog can't be trained, it is a natural instinct the dog either posses or he doesn't. Since people can neither see the coon nor smell them as a general rule, it would be virtually impossible to teach the dog to do it. The best a person can do is have a captive coon and create that specific interest in the dog in a controlled situation. After that it is purely what the dog has in it. All airedales as a breed have the natural ability to hunt. It is inherent within the breed, what so many lack and is the first thing they lose is the "desire" to hunt. For instance, I know how to play baseball, I just lack the desire desire to play it. Works the same for dogs. Some dogs like birds, some like fur, some would rather sit by you in the kitchen and wait form you to drop something on the floor. Because I breed for more of an extreme desire to hunt, this population has to be kept closed to maintain the extreme. Once they are bred back into the general population of Airedales, they will vacillate back to the average for the general population. Extremes have to be isolated for that reason.

[Maverick]

Jackie -

You can train a dog to pass the national fur tracking test that uses a coon. Those methods, which Don gave an example of, are not methods that coon hunters use, because it is not coon hunting. So first off, you have to decide whether you are training for the test or to hunt coon. It is not the same.

If you really want to hunt coon, but you don't have any, you really have to want to, because you are going to spending lots of time and money to get to the coons, as obviously they are not going to be coming to you. Patty can learn by trial and error. If she has the desire, drive, and the ability to do it, she will learn. The only way to train her to hunt coon, is by running her with a good coon dog. The other dog is doing the training, not you. This is much faster and surer method than the trial and error approach.

You have to also realize, and many that have been hunting for awhile still don't, is that when you are talking to a dog and they are listening to you, you have completely interrupted their focus to try to figure out what you want. This is not good for the dog's performance. The best hunting dogs that I have hunted with, and some have been top flight pointing dogs, required very little, if any, talking/yelling/whistling from their human hunting partner. When you are hunting, you should be doing your part and your dog should be doing their part, and neither should be telling the other how to do each other's job. You get to decide when to hunt and when to quit, but you can not see the kaleidoscope of scent colors that your dog "sees", nor can you hear what they hear, and they can't see the colors that you can, nor do they have your elevated sight advantage.

There are a number of serious trainers on this board. If training is what floats your boat, or you want to pass the AKC hunting tests, pay attention to what they say. They know how to train a dog to do what you say, when you say it, in a manner prescribed by you. It helps to have a dog that is predisposed to hang on your every word and gesture, which of course means that they aren't focusing on hunting, but some people and dogs like that.

If you are more interested in actually hunting rather than testing or field trialing, then pay attention to the hunting advice. Don't try to run a road race with a tractor, or plow a field with a Ferrari.

From a hunting perspective, there is no such thing as "Coon tracking w/o the coon". You might as well as be saying "Cooking dinner w/o the food" -- it makes as much sense. Though, some people with talent and time can create a believable (at a distance) imitation, out of wax.

Pete

[jsf13]

Good stuff Pete!

Joe

[jackie]

Thanks guys, ;D my problem is I want to do both , hunting and trialing. I'm already hunting with Patty, just not coons, and she is game. For fur trialing, I want her to understand more about staying with a certain trail/track (coon) which I know is something that drives the cat hunters crazy around here when their dogs cross some deer trail or desert big horn or some other varmit and they quit the cat track and go off on the new scent. Also, during the fur test you can't say a word, well you can if you want to be disqualified ; the dog has to do it all, so in that sense it is similar to a hunting situation, but, of course, you can't shoot the coon! Interestingly, I did ask a cat hunter if I could run my dog with his hounds when she got a bit older. He said no because he didn't want the Airedale killing one of his hounds. He believed that the Airedales are so aggresive in the hunt that they would hurt the other dogs or even kill them. I didn't argue with him, as I'm no aurthority, but from what I have read, I know Airedales have often been run with hounds on both coon, feral hogs, and also run with hounds for black bear. Anyway, your comments have been fabulous and well said. The training tips really good both ways. I think a dog has to have it in them, as Godfather commented, you can't really teach a dog to hunt it is born in them or it isn't. Well, I'm interested to see what you all have to say, so I'll check back in later. Don't get discouraged with me, I'm all Airedale ears. Jackie

[Maverick]

In the testing, AFAIK, the only cross tracks will be with bottled scents. Find out the details of how they lay them and the coon scent and duplicate the situation. If the reward is only at the end of the bottled coon scent trail, the dog will learn the game quickly enough. Just make sure the reward is motivating enough, and that the dog displays the correct behavior for the prescribed amount of time at the tree before receiving the reward. Well actually, you want to do it small steps at a time, depending on how fast the dog is learning the game. Make sure the dog is enjoying the game, and doesn't get bored.

The killing hounds is only a treeing issue, and is not typical of the vast majority of Airedales. You could see if you could get invited to a puppy training day to prove your Airedale is safe at the tree. Proving that the Airedale doesn't protect kills might be an issue too, but the chances of damage hounds is not very great as you will be there and can sort out any problem before it develops.

The hound killing issue could also just be a polite way of saying that he doesn't want your Airedale "trashing out" his lion/cat hounds, which is a big deal. I really can't see any hound man with a pack of good lion/cat dogs letting anything but a solid "broke" cat dog to run with his hounds.

Pete

[hicntry]

Actually, your friends have every right to worry obout their hounds at the tree. the truth is, many hounds are notorious tree fighters. The airedale may just be an innocent party and get jumped on by the hound. JT told me it doesn't really matter whose dogs start the fight, his are going to lose against an airedale. Competative coon hunters encourage the dogs to stand on the tree because they look pretty but it serves no purpose as the dog can't see anything standing on a big tree. Whynit is not a problem is in competative hunts the hunteres are usually pretty close. Bear and cat hunters discourage the dogs from standing on the tree largely because that is where the tree fighting starts and that it may take an hour or so to find them and get to the tree. They are fighting over possession of the tree and they are all wound up. A pack is used for bear and lion normally and they will kill the dog on the bottom. These hunters want to see their dogs stand back away from the tree so they can see the animal and it is less likely they will fight. Something to keep in mind. When two Airedales are banging heads it looks pretty much like a normal dog fight because they are somewhat evenly matched. A hound and a 75lb Airedale is a different story and you can't blame the owner of the hound for not wanting to take the chance. If all the dogs involved would be yours, that is one thing, but you have to remember, they are dogs so you can't predict what will happen.

[jackie]

Guys, now I better understand his reasoning, I never questioned it, as I said, because he does a lot of cat tracking and he is a died in the wool sort, native to this part of the US. I think he runs Walkers and Black & Tans. Anyway, I know he will talk to me more, he loves to talk dogs, so I'll ask him about some of his exploits and maybe bring a few good stories back here. One thing for sure he is aware of an Airedale's hunting prowess on both fur and feather. I'm going to see if he has ever owned a dale.
Don, I've been to your website and saw some great pictures of you and your dogs hunting and holding at bay some pigs, etc. Do your dogs get in a fight occasionally over the pig? Seems like it's bound to happen. I've also heard that Airedales will work together at certain jobs during the hunt, and that some dogs in a pack will learn to grab a certain leg so that the prey is streached out and ready for the kill dog.
Back to 'coon hunting w/o the coon' I'm working on getting some coon scent right now, when I do I'm going to start laying the track with it with the cheese and/or hot dogs. I want to take some pictures or videos and put them up. I hope you all don't get too big a laugh...Patty will probably make up for my defects. Mostly I'm going to try Don's method and sit back and watch. I think it would be good for this string for some others to see what happens (good or not so good) and the comments generated. Problem, I wanted to paste a picture of Patty in to my last message and I can't get it to stick for some reason, any suggestions? I know a video will have to be through a link.
Well, I have to go to work...will check in later. Jackie

[overstreet]

The best formula to scent is what Ardel Grawes sells. His address is Box 306 Wahpeton N.D. 58074. This is what the hound hunters and field trial people use. Phone him for his catalog at 1-218-643-3292 TRAPPER

[overstreet]

Glad you asked. The best is Ardel Grawe scents. A catalog is sent when you phone [phone]. This is the best and smells right, all the feild trials use this......TRAPPER

[bushman]

Here's an pic fron the 1920's of Vaugn Plott and some of his famous Plott hounds. These are the dogs he used for bear huntin. Notice the dog on the right...

"I think alot of an airedale. They got plenty of stuff in 'em...they go in an get it, that is all they was to it..."
Guess he didn't have much of a problem with em...

[jackie]

Hey, thanks very much for giving me (and anyone else reading this string) the name and phone number to call regarding good scent. I will call and get a catalog, it will be another Christmas gift to look forward to. Also, I love the picture of Plott with his Plott hounds and the Airedale . That really says it all. Thanks for that pic. All the best, Jackie

[hicntry]

That is a great picture isn't it. I was looking at the height and unless those are small plotts that is a good sized airedale. Tall anyway.

[bushman]

I found it in an old foxfire book. Old man Plott said he used 3 airedales in a pack of 17 dogs. They were to "go in and get it" when the bear was bayed.
It listed the standard height for male plott hounds at 22 to 27 inches, so they were good sized airedales!