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Post by jsf13 on Dec 2, 2005 16:09:16 GMT -5
From most of what I have gathered it seems Schutzhund for the most part is nothing more than a "game" to the dog and all they really want is the sleeve.That in fact if the decoy loses the sleeve they go after the sleeve not the decoy.Also that many Schutzhund dogs would not in fact bite or protect in a real life situation,Would this be an accurate assessment?
Secondly of those dogs that would in fact bite or protect in a real life situation,would that be due more to the nature of the dog itself and might that dog bite or protect even without the Schutzhund training?
Appreciate any and all responses to these questions.Thanks
Joe.
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Post by ed on Dec 2, 2005 20:36:57 GMT -5
From most of what I have gathered it seems Schutzhund for the most part is nothing more than a "game" to the dog and all they really want is the sleeve.That in fact if the decoy loses the sleeve they go after the sleeve not the decoy.Also that many Schutzhund dogs would not in fact bite or protect in a real life situation,Would this be an accurate assessment? Secondly of those dogs that would in fact bite or protect in a real life situation,would that be due more to the nature of the dog itself and might that dog bite or protect even without the Schutzhund training? Appreciate any and all responses to these questions.Thanks Joe. Joe the answer is the protection part (remember there is obedience and tracking) can be viewed a game. Something like what skeet is to bird hunting. But this really is not the whole story. The dogs that compete range from very sporty just as you described to serious dogs "trained " to play the game. Basically the dogs can do protection in one of two drives and usually a combination of both. The first is to chase and capture appropiately called prey drive. A dog in this drive will leave the man and chase the thrown sleeve. The second drive is oriented to the man, and is callled defense drive. A dog wholly in this drive will not leave the man for a thrown sleeve. In fact it has been known that a dog in this drive can bite elsewhere than the sleeve.(This is dirty pool) I'm not sure to think of it as a game vs real gives a good understanding though this is how it is explained as quick answer. Many dogs are very capable of being directed by training and exposure to either of the two extremes. Curiously some of the dogs with the greatest native defense drives are often the most insecure and make lousy competition dogs. They are frightened so they have learned to growl show teeth and bite, often shallow and ready to retreat. Protectionis a complex subject and we are just touching the surface.There are other drives such as fight drive, social dominance etc as motivators in. dog aggression. BTW I met and worked with A German Shepherd that was friendly to a fault. He was a dog that had been imported from Europe. In Europe he had worked as police dog but was exported here as he had so badly in injured some one in an arrest that they wanted him out of the country. This dog would leave the man for the sleeve. If muzzled he would hammer a man to the ground while his tail was wagging.Each head punch with the muzzle if unmuzzled would be a bite. For the dog it was sport and the man was the toy. He could do you real bad without a mean thought in his head. Never heard him growl or show teeth. On command in a building search he would pull a heavily padded guy out by anything he could reach and I mean anything. No hard feelings while he was shaking the c*** out of the guy. |
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Post by jsf13 on Dec 3, 2005 13:56:19 GMT -5
Thanks for the response. So if I read you right,like most anything else,it really boils down to the dog.Schutzhund may boost his confidence some but in the end can't make a dog into something he's not?
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Post by ed on Dec 3, 2005 17:53:26 GMT -5
Yep
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Post by danwolf on Dec 7, 2005 0:46:30 GMT -5
Hello guys from a hunter, even though Ed, your airedale seems to be double deadly, w/shutzhund and hunting-very impressive sir, beautiful dog, too. A fantastic tribute to the breed! Great question, great answer. But does that "sporty dog" make a bad schutzhund dog necessarily? was that overtly friendly shepherd a bad protection dog-or personal defense dog? I'm thinking no, unless the potential victim can't order the verbal attack command.  Can a dog pass the defense part of shutzhund if it just goes for a sleeve?, not a man w/out? While we are at it, one more question if you don't mind from a hunter, what defines personal protection training? - Is this training done exclusive of SAR? Thanks. |
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Ryan
Hunter/worker
Posts: 195
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Post by Ryan on Dec 7, 2005 13:28:27 GMT -5
what defines personal protection training? - Is this training done exclusive of SAR? Thanks.
ScH dogs don't have a human to find at the end of the track while SAR dogs (except in the case of cadaver dogs) always find a live subject.
Some SAR dogs do track, but most airscent. |
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Post by ed on Dec 7, 2005 14:46:54 GMT -5
"does that "sporty dog" make a bad schutzhund dog "
To the contray they are often outstanding competition dogs reaching National level championship.
Their very strong prey drive "sleeve monsters" gives a very flashy appearance, they are often very biddable in obedience and easily reinforced during obedience training with chase toys tennis ball etc
The German shepherd I mentioned would be a poor area protector ie junk yard dog and as a patrol dog needed to trained to recognize threatening situations. he was not sharp and had very low native suspicion. With a command or trained response he was a fire cracker
I don't know enough about SAR to answer in this area. However I owned and sold a Sch trained Giant Schnauzer bitch that found a lost three year old in Norhtern Michigan DURING A DRIVING RAIN. The Sherriff called me by radio phone and said Quera ( South African import) had found the childs shoe and was lying down with it between her paws.( A Sch indication of a found article) in another few hundred yards she found the boy, unfortunately drowned in a culvert. I believe what she was actually doing was trackng to find the other shoe. She was not a sporty dog and took life very serious. A real hard head and for a bitch quite dominant.
Tough to get a flashy look out of and hard as hell to quit in protection if the helper was moving or looking at her in a challenging way. AT ten months she was lifting HER leg.
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Alisa
Hunter/worker
Posts: 156
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Post by Alisa on Dec 7, 2005 17:27:14 GMT -5
Trailing (as in Tracking) and Air Scent are both utilized in SAR. Because ground trails often get heavily contaminated in urban areas, Air Scent may appear to be used more often, however the choice is always based on the scenario and local conditions. Also trailing is looking for a specific person/scent(lost child scenario), air scent is looking for anything human(earth quake survivors). And I AM oversimplifying it, but the point is - both are used and needed. Some dogs are better at one or the other, but I did meet a dog certified in both, so it is possible
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