Building Bite and Possessiveness

[Ryan]

Working on bite and targeting.

What are some techniques for building tug possessiveness and a strong, firm grip.

I may have made some mistakes allowing our 6month old to play with our 2.5yr old. These are family dogs so there isnt much I can do about their interaction.

The 6month old likes to play tug and has an excellent ball drive - but she doesnt bite very hard (maybe due to playing with the older dog?) - what can I do to promote a strong firm grip?

Any advice would be great.

[Ryan]

Thanks Curt - that gives me much to go on. Some techniques I'm already using - some I'll start to use. I have a variety of tugs - Ryka likes them all. She is ball crazy too!

[lacypsa]

Do you have an experienced helper?

[Ryan]

Experienced helper? Not yet. I have some possible options for when she is 12-14months old - but until then I'm just going to work on grip, targeting and technique. I have an acquaintance that owns a dutch shepard - but neither of us are experienced. We'll see what the future holds...

[lacypsa]

counter (regrip) then reward by allowing the pup to win and carry the prey object. You can never do to much of this, unless of course he or she loses interest in which case I prefer to put them in the crate as a marker for the end of a training session. It helps to distinguish training time by using the crate in this fashion if possible. The pup should begin to associate leaving the crate with the game and should come into drive, let her drag you to the training area, there play and work the grip for a short enough period that she does not become bored. Finish the game by allowing her to carry the tug back to his/her crate and choke her off of the tug before putting her up. The dog does not need to be in the crate at all times excepting training I have found that 15 min or so before and after help isolate the experience for the dog. You can incorporate some environmental stimuli once the pup has the idea but imo it is best to keep these neutral (sounds away from the game) until the dog exhibits complete soundness on the bite. The helper (ie you or your friend) can begin to stroke the dog gently about the head shoulders and flanks in order to prepare the pup for physical interaction from the helper, this coupled with verbal interaction of a gentle nature will get the dog used to focusing on the prey object while being bombarded with other stimuli. Grips, I believe are genetic and are not very important to me at a young age (but I always work the counter). To me, as long as prey drive is promoted and the pup feels like he is the badest thing on the block there is plenty of time later for worrying about grip problems and defense work.
good luck

[Ryan]

good advice - thanks!

[maugh]

Ryan,
I would suggest you get the video by Bernhard Flinks entitled "Preparing your young dog for the helper" from Leerburg.
Rewarding countering is good, but if you are thinking about Schutzhund, the dog must have a strong, calm grip. Too much countering can lead to an unstable bite and that is seen by the judge as a symptom of unsureness and nerve problems. Bernhard shows how to develop the dog by yourself step by step until you have all the ingredients of the Schutzhund moves - including escape, being driven from within the pocket, etc. If you are working with a friend, have the friend also view the video.
My young Gangster loves the fight and as a result he likes to unload into the tug at every chance. I only reward those counters where I can see the bite is firm and full.
To get a decisive bite, put the tug on a rope, tie the dog up and when he commits to the tug do your best by tugging on the rope to make him lose it out of the side of his mouth. The dog learns very quickly that if the bite is not decisive, he will lose the tug. I give them 3 strikes and they are out, ie they are put up and if possible I have them watch another dog being worked. They don't get another chance for at least a day or two.
As the dog grows older the decisive character of the bite will translate into a hard bite. I have found this is the safest way to develop a hard bite in a young dog. Applying too much defense and pressure at an early age causes conflict and results in the hectic bite that is so prevalent.
If you follow a program like this, the mechanics of bitework are perfected without conflict. When the dog is minimum 2 yrs old and the earnest defense work can begin, he already has mastery over the mechanics and he can concentrate on being strong toward the helper. Then the defense work progresses quickly.
Cheers, feel free to contact me if you have questions.
Maugh

[lacypsa]

Very interesting and well said. SchH is a very precisely judged in all areas. This is why I play in the ring sports and pp venues (laziness).

[Ryan]

The experience on this board is fantastic! thanks all for taking the time to walk me through all this.

ok - now I show how little I know....

what exactly is a 'counter'

and

"put the tug on a rope, tie the dog up and when he commits to the tug do your best by tugging on the rope to make him lose it out of the side of his mouth."

^ is the tug on the ground, or in my hand... or....?

[lacypsa]

A counter AKA regrip occurs when a dog adjusts his grip on the prey oject. The helper can usually get a dog dog to counter by ceasing to move the tug or sleeve and adusting the angle at which it is held. What Maugh is saying is that provoking and rewarding the counter too often will result in mouthiness on the sleeve later (chewing the sleeve instead of maintaining a firm calm grip) and it makes perfect sense. If the pup is constantly readjusting the grip the tug is pulled from his/her mouth at the moment the mouth opens for the counter this will cause the pup to develope a fear of losing the prey object and keep his mouth shut while on the bite.
By tying the dog out on a back tie you limit his scope of movement. By tying the tug on a rope you are putting more distance between the pup and the helper leading to less chance of helper/dog conflict (the pup will be less worried about the big guy in front of him and focus on the tug). Also having the pup backtied allows you to use opposition reflex (attempting to pull something from the dogs mouth while they are stationary will result in the dog biting with more pressure) while always making sure you are not pulling hard enough to actually yank the tug from his mouth against by mearly overpowering him. Most high drive dogs require at least a wide flat collar when back tied during prey excersise or agitation so as not to cause trauma to the trachea a harness can also be used.
Have you looked for SchH clubs in your local area? Even one day at a distant club would be a huge help.

[lacypsa]

sorry for all the scattered thoughts. I need grammar check.
As for the tug, it is on the ground or in the air at the opposite end of the rope from you. Tease the pup with it at first not allowing the bite in order to put the pup into prey drive. In other words let him chase it for awile until he looks like he's going to explode if he does'nt get it, then allow him to bite.

[Ryan]

Ahhhh - I see. The counter AKA re-grip! I get it now.

I've been working her prey with a ball on a line - I'll be switching that to a tug now.

[maugh]

Lacy,
I very much enjoyed your post on countering, etc. I think you explained it very well. I also thought your remark about using a harness was very important. So many people think that harnesses are not macho enough but they forget that a young dog's spine and skeleton in general are not well formed. Lunging against a collar can cause skeletal damage or even pain, so that the dog learns that being in drive is painful, better to be a pet rock.
The harness is very commonly used in protection work in Europe, especially with non-GSDs. I've seen Theo Spoerer, who trains most of the winning malis make extensive use of it. In fact, he won't even work a dog unless it has a harness on.
I might throw out this thought. The emphasis you put on countering might depend on what the dog is doing. For example my Turk was a very powerful, athletic dog who almost always got the bite right the first time - deep, solid and calm. I could afford to give him practice countering because his basic bite was so solid.
My puppy Gangster is also very athletic and powerful and he loves to fight but being young he has a tendency to want to re-adjust even when the bit is deep and solid. Therefore I have to reward the deep, calm bite with him and give him lots of opportunities to get it right the first time.
Ryan, I hope all this makes some sense to you. It is hard to explain these things without being able to demonstrate them
Cheers,
Maugh