Training 8 month Dale to COME when called

[wayne]

All,
This started out as a short message. But one thing led to another.
To make a long story short, we are having a blast with our Airedale.

We have been working/training our female Airedale pup since she was 5 month s old. She is now 8 months old. We are having problems getting her to come back to us when we call. We can not remove her leash except when she is in a fenced in 8 acre parcel of bush.
[/img]We practice her COME on a short and 30 ft leash in our yard. Normally she responds pretty consistently when in this situation. However, once we release her in the bush compound, the nose and feet take over - rabbits, birds, leaves, mice etc. We've tried baiting her to entice her to us when in the yard, Before we unleash her, we bait her and then intermittently as she zips by us etc- most times it works.


We allow her to run free in the compound for 1 - 2 hrs in the early AM and approx 1 hr in the late afternoon. I'm working in the bush with her all this time. She does not get fed until we return home. She comes home and crashes. She is getting better about coming back to us when we call but not as consistently as I would like. When she comes by us we can call her to us and bait her, then we allow her to continue on. We leash her at different spots and at different times so that we don't set a pattern. We don't punish her or speak harshly to her if she does not come when we call and /or, whistle. Most times she will come but only after she is finished whatever she is doing/chasing/scenting/digging out, etc.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to make the recall a consistent dependable command?

It is cold (minus 20- 30 F) and the snow is approx 10 inches deep - she loves it and can't wait to get outside.
She comes from an active hunting line. My plan is to train her to be a retriever. I have been involved with Schutzhund in the past with my GSD - I've never had this recall problem before. My GSD sticks to me velcro.

Other than that we are satisfied with her, she is good in the house, listens well, learns quickly, retains what she learns and hasn't chewed up much.

Also I'm having second thoughts about letting her play tug with her favourite retrieval toy - a wisk broom. Is this going to cause me grief later on?

She has (found?) killed? a snowshoe rabbit. She brought it close to me and started to play, pulled the fur off and chewed on its ears and head. I noticed her staying in one spot for too long and went over to investigate. It was partially frozen when I picked it up, so I'm not sure if she found it dead or killed it in the AM, then went back for it in the PM. Probably not the best situation for a retriever. I took it away from her and hung it just out of reach in a tree. She was interested in it - tree climbing etc for approx 10 minutes until I called her off it. Strangely enough she didn't bark at it
Any thoughts on what potential harm I'm causing.

One more thing:
I'm having her start pulling a toboggan loaded with a chainsaw, gas, oil, clothing, etc. I walk with her on the short leash with the leash and toboggan connected to her thru my hand. She loves to pull this and doesn't seem to be too worried about the noise of the plastic toboggan following her. I'm also giving her a "mush" command when she is pulling straight. I'm keeping this training situation short and the weight light.

So, do you think that I'm confusing this dog?

She seems to be happy and eats double what my GSD eats.- both eat top quality food.

[maugh]

Hi Wayne,
First thing, talk to the breeder and find out how they teach their dogs to come when called. But if you want to do retriever work, you will need an E-collar and so I'm going to suggest a way that works very well. It is explained by Evan Graham, whose works you should also become familiar with if you want to do any retriever work:
www.rushcreekpress.com/page3allproducts.html
Evan puts the E-collar on the dog and also two ropes. An assistant holds one rope while you hold the other. The dog starts out close to the assistant. He also runs the E-collar.
Set the collar at a low continuous intensity where the dog just barely notices it. As you call "Here" (or whatever), give a pull on your rope and the assistant lets go, and you press low continuous on the transmitter all the way until the dog comes to you. After the first couple of time the assistant should put back pressure on the rope so the dog has to fight through it to come to you. Finally, sensitize him to the E-collar by using higher settings until he vocalizes. Then gradully decrease setting until minimum that gets him to notice.
Two-three sessions and dog is collar conditioned. Now you have a tool for enforcing the "here" command. You also have a tool for correcting the dog at a distance which you will need if you want to do any serious retriever work.
Good luck and have lots of fun.
Regards,
Maugh

[wayne]

Maugh,
I talked to the breeder and he also uses the leash method. He runs his dogs in pairs or in a small pack - mountain lion hunting, raccoons,bob cats etc in the mountains

I'm having trouble with the E collar concept. I've read quite a bit about E collars and up to this point have not had the need to use this method. Although if that's what it takes to keep my dog safe then I'll consider it.

I used the restaint method when teaching my GSD to COME when we were involved with Shutzhund. That worked great for her as she seemed to want to be with me . We've tried this with the Dale with mixed results. My airedale is a totally different dog than I'm used to and I'm having to step outside my comfort zone and learn/unlearn some of my dog training skills.
I hesitate to ask. Have you or do you know anyone that has tried Clicker Training for retrieving? There is a book out there called Positive Gun Dogs Clicker Training for Sporting Breeds. I've not read it or talked to anyone that has actually used it. Have you or have you ever talked to anyone or worked with a dog trained with this method?
Would it work with Airedales?

I've a copy of Richard Wolters Water Dog that I've read and have gone to the library to get updated training methods that some of his students? have gone on to write.
I'm not sure how effective this would be for my dog. Comments?

[maugh]

Wayne,
First, just like in Schutzhund, if you want to train a dog for retriever work (or upland or fur) you have to be around other people who do it and see what works for them. There is a culture that belongs with each of these activities. Find a club or an informal group that is in your general area. Don't have pre-conceived ideas about what works. Watch experienced people, some of who are smart and others not so smart and watch what works. No offense, but at this point in your experience level, you are clueless. Don't let your pre-conceived ideas about training tools (E-collar, it sounds sooo baaadddd!) impede your progress. I started out the same way.
Regarding the clicker. I've never seen it used in Schutzhund protection and I've never seen it used in mainstream hunting dog training. The dog needs to react to the stimulus being presented - a bad guy, a bird, a rabbit, mountain lion - and the promise of a treat is totally dwarfed by the treat it gets just being allowed to react to these bigger stimuli. You can't motivate these kind of reactions by the promise of a treat. The stimuli is either a motivator in and of itself or you need a different dog. And just like in Schutzhund, the stimulus must presented so that the dog in training always wins, which is why you need to find some people.
You can use a clicker for obedience related exercises, such as "sit" and the heeling and pivot work that retriever trainers do. But most retriever trainers use the promise of a bird being thrown as the reward and they want the dog to look out (i.e. expecting a mark) during these exercises. You don't want the dog looking up at you if you expect him to mark a retrieve. A reliable "here" from 100 yards when your calling the dog because of a bad shot? No clicker is going to accomplish that. This needs force of some kind, followed by a thrown bird so that he learns, "Yeah he forced me to come back but when I did I got another bird so it's okay!" Similar to teaching an "Out" by giving the dog another chance to bite when he complies.
Evan Graham says, "teach, force, reinforce". Clickers can teach. But they can't convince the dog that he must obey even in the presence of diversions or temptations.
Wolter is totally useless. His books make excellent fire starter material.
Evan Graham is the most detailed and informative. Seek out one of his seminars and attend without a dog. One of the most dramatic things he does is re-arrange his hat while saying "This is force".
When I did ear pinch with Gangster, all I needed to do was take hold of his ear and he would open his mouth. His ears are sensitive. Madonna too. I pinched just once to let them know I could pinch hard if I needed to. They have never challenged that.
Hope this helps, you can also send me a private message or email if you prefer.
If you are interested in retriever work check out HRC - Hunting Retriever Clubs. Where I live there is one or more in any direction 1 - 2 hours away.
Best of luck,
Maugh

[wayne]

Maugh,
Thanks for your information. I agree with most of the things that you stated. As you said,
when I was doing Schutzhund, I found a club and joined - absolutely the best thing that I could have done both for myself and my dog. I took and used what I wanted/needed from
the people that had experience. It certainly helped to reinforce the various things that I read or studied in the books - there is no substitute for actually being involved with an activity. Experienced dog people may have been there done that and may have figured out something that worked for them and it may or may not work for you.

I have found a local club that I will be working with in the spring. A Working Gun Dog Assoc. I have been to a couple of their trails prior to getting our Airedale. Locally, no one apparently works an airdale in retrieving. Needless to say the people who I talked to were very interested in working/helping me to train one. Local Airedales were available but do not work or have what I wanted. I found a breeder out west (in the mountains) I decided after talking to him that he had the type of dog that I wanted. He was right.

What I am trying to do right now is get her to do the basic commands - which she is doing mostly. The thing that I am concerned with is her lack of coming when we call.
Its not that I'm against E-collars - force - if correctly and timely applied it works. Its just that it sounds SO BAD.....on paper. I have seen it used, by a person that should not have been allowed to use one. I was not impressed. Hopefully when I start working with the club, I'll see this tool? being used responsibly.
My understanding of clicker training is somewhat different than yours.. In a nutshell,
if used correctly the clicker is a faster way of rewarding the dog for doing something that you want him to do. It can be used for basic commands and more or less reinforces the behaviour that you are trying to get. As the training progresses, you can substitute whatever command etc that you want and that in itself becomes the reward (conditioned response). I'm still interested in talking to someone that has read/used the Positive Gun Dog Clicker training the Sporting Dog to see if there is something that I can use for my dog's and my benefit.

However, you are right, in my opinion about stimuli. Either they have it or they don't. Accept it , change dogs or move on. My GSD ( is a Schutzhund drop out) is still a great dog and I still work with with her doing other things. one of them was herding sheep of all things - she is a natural - instinct or genetics plays a big role in this. Again, either they have it or they don't.

I am actually forcing my airdale to retrieve at the end of a leash. She loves to chase and "kill", will mostly bring it back to my vicinity but the leashes 6 ft to 30 ft ensures that she has no option but bring it back to me. This is also force.

She has a good OUT compliments of Schutzhund - the method that I am using is the absence of movement - I hold the retrieved item securely on the ground with my hands (this is sometimes very tough to keep it still) until it becomes dead and not longer interesting. When or as she lets go I give her the command to OUT. Then it magically becomes alive and flies away. It took a couple of times training but she now mostly OUTs on command with most things.

Anyway thanks for your interest and comments so far
Respectfully
Wayne

[maugh]

Wayne,
I don't think we differ on the theory behind the use of the clicker just maybe on where it is useful. I will buy the book you mention and read it. The limitation of the clicker is its acoustic range. Something that you should be introducing is the whistle. The whistle is multi-purpose, it gives commands, it corrects and warns a dog who is off the line or getting out of control, and it tells the dog when he is close to a bird.
And as Evan Graham says, "Compliance brings rewards", so that the dog learns it is pleasant to comply and unpleasant not to. You definitely have a good grasp of that principle.
I will definitely read the book. I try not to get hung up on methods or tools per se, I try to evaluate things in terms of whether they work. It will be good when you get together with people in the club and watch what works for them and what doesn't. And hopefully you'll find a good sense of comeraderie there too.
Regards, best of luck with your training,
Maugh

[reed]

Hi,

Get a quality ecollar. Learn to use it correctly. It will simplify both your life and the dogs life. We can prattle about all kinds of things like clickers and multiple ropes, about rewards and corrections but used corectly the ecollar is a excellent training tool, regardless of what it sounds like.

Reed

[wayne]

Maugh and Reed,
Thanks for your input.
As per Maugh, I'll use whatever works and minimizes the stress on the dog and myself. This talk of serious retrieving is all in the future. Right now she is still a puppy at 8 months old. I'm spending a lot of time with her for a variety of reasons. My personal opinion is that this will pay off big time in the future.

Along with the retrieve, come when called and general obedience, I've also started her pulling a light toboggan with a small weight in it which lets her know that she is actually working.
The last couple of times I've walked her to the running grounds/site (approx 2 city blocks)
pulling this load "solo" with me walking along side or behind her.
For whatever reason after pulling this toboggan during the last two days, she has stayed closer to me and seems to be coming when called more readily. Of course it is colder outside now and she may just want to go home (not likely). I've also started feeding her immediately after her daily walks. We continue to work on the recall with different lengths of leashes - back to square one if she doesn't come when called. Sometimes it seems to be 2 steps forward with 3 back,
We will get there eventually.
We give her plenty of time to be a puppy but I am starting to insist that she pay attention while she is working. For example no stoppping and sniffing while she is pulling the toboggan. She seems to love it, that is, nosing and pulling the harness when its on the toboggan and getting that certain set to her head and ears when she thinks that she is really doing something.

Maugh, You could have trouble getting a copy of the book. You can get a copy of it on line or AMAZON.COM may have some copies. Personally I tried the library even interlibrary loans with no luck.
Positive Gun Dogs Clicker Training for Sporting Breeds by Jim Barry, Mary Emmen and Susan Smith
I'm suprised that I haven't heard from anyone concerning this training method as described in the book.
I know that most people don't think that this will work with sporting dogs but some of it may be a valid training tool the will accelerate the learning curve.

I'll probably end up buying a copy for myself anyway. If its no good, it can sit right next to WATER DOG -Wolters book. I took what I wanted from that book and I'm leafing thru a couple of working dog books that I have to see what I can remind myself of.

Respectfully
Wayne

[Summit Forge]

Wayne,
From whom and where in the "mountains" did you get your Airedale? What is the pedigree?

In regard to retriever training, I agree with Maugh. Evan Graham's, Smart Work for Retrievers Vol I is a must read for training a pup. Additionally, try these links...http://www.totalretriever.com/ecollar.htm and www.dobbsdogs.com/library/retrievers/index.html.

My experience with treats with or without a clicker is that one can teach non-retrieving behaviors that are "close" to you but even then reliability will probably be a problem. Beyond that it's worthless.

Ron

[wayne]

Ron,
Thanks for your input. I will look at the sites listed. I see that he will be having a seminar not to far from where we live. I'll make it a point to attend - without my dog.
I mostly agree with your thoughts on "close to you" I trained my GSD without "treats" etc and have a well behaved dog.

The information that you requested:
www3.telus.net/airedales/
Airy Mountain Airedales in British Columbia Canada
Clint Stubb owner
If that doesn't work do a search as per the above Airy Mountain Airedales
Pedigree Male LN 748470 Airymountain Grizzly King
Female PG 935982 Airy Mountain Ginny

For your information. I found Clint and his family to be excellent to deal with/talk to.
I cold called Clint and asked him about a certain style of airedale that I had read about on the internet. We talked a couple of times and I decided that he had the type of dog that I was interested in. From what I have experienced so far, I received exactly what I wanted from Clint.

His style of hunting is totally different than anything that I've ever experienced.
We are more than satisfied with our airedale, she is everything and more than we could have asked for. She had plenty of drive, a willingness to work/learn and a stubborn streak that has me sometimes frustrated . Frustrated because I have to throw out what I considered training skills and invent new ones that work consistently. Thats why all the questions.

By the way, I "borrowed" his method of ending a messages. I like it.
Respectfully,
Wayne

[Summit Forge]

I would like to see your pup. How about posting some photo's.

Ron

[wayne]

She is a really deep rich brown and black coloured female. At 8 months approx 50 lbs and 20 inches tall.

I changed a couple of things that we do and she seems to be coming to us more readily and consistently.
We feed her twice daily- now after we get back from our walks.

We also went back to basics with the shorter leash, That way I can force her to come when called. We've extended the leash length gradually, going back to the shorter one if she decided that she didn't have to do what we wanted.
The cold weather could also have some bearing on her being more willing to come when called.

Attachments:

[Summit Forge]

Thanks. Nice color and beautiful, keen eyes.

Ron

[hicntry]

Wayne, You have had some good suggestions but they are pretty much run of the mill. Training has to be kept interesting to keep an airedales focused. What I found worked really well for me when I had this problem years a go and it worked like a charm. Airedales are curious creatures. I used that to my advantage. First off, if you want them to come NEVER EVER call them. When the hunt was over, I would wait until they were in a good position and I would take a header in the road and play dead. Try to have someone around to ward off oncoming traffic if you try this method or you may get run over. Because of their curiosity, they have to come and see if you are all right.....that's when you grab a leg and hang on. If you do this more than once, they will be on to you. Another method. The dogs had had a tritronics on before and the receiver had a silver antenae. I was in a hurry and had to get home. I had no shock collar with me and the antennae was broke on the car anyway so I gave it a couple of twists and jerked it off. The dog was walking down the road ignoring me and I held this silver antennae up. He made an about face and got in the truck as soon as he saw it. I saved that antennae for a long while because it always seemed to work. Once when with Bob Mc. Winchester was being himself up on Bob's mountain. Bob was ready to leave so I drove him home and left Winchester to think about his transgressions. When I got back, there was two guys trying to chum him with steak. I told them they would never get the dog that way and told them to watch. They were in a clearing and I made a u turn and yelled "Let's Go" to Winchester and he fell in front of the truck and I roaded him miles back to Bob's house....even down the paved roads while people passed us. Pulled in at Bob's, got out and opened the slider on the van and Winchester got right in like he was supposed to. One thing I learned early on....it war....it's you against them. Be strong. Hope this helps.

[dafields]

good luck with your pup, ecollar is the way to go for recalls. However be careful with them. An ecollar is like a scalpel, in a doctors hands you can perform miracles, but in a kid hands someones getting butchered! Learn the right ecollar methods before straping it on.

Check out Dave Koyers site in Austin TX. I hosted a seminar with him in November. His retrieves are first class. He has a DVD coming out soon.