The absolute basics for a retriever/or Upland dog

[phil]

In this order. Confidence and compliance must be demonstrated before moving the pup to the next behavior. During this process learning how to read the dogs attitude and confidence is a must for the handler.
Without the read it is hard to assume what your pup ready for next in the training process.
1) “Here”
2) “Heel & Sit”
3) Hold automatically evolves to Walking “Hold, Heel, Sit”
4) Fetch ear pinch, which evolves into Walking “Fetch” & “Fetch-no-fetch”, e-collar conditioning to “Fetch”
A trained retrieve is essential to having a trained dog without it you are banking on accidental behavior.
These 1st four elements of training hold true for the pheasant hunting dog or duck hunting dog
5) For the pheasant hunting dog learning how to quarter the beat within gun range, which would also require understanding the turn whistle. Shooting should not take place until delivery of dead (cold & fresh) birds and clipped winged birds to hand is a strong behavior on the dogs part. a side note this work of quartering on clipped winged birds MAY help strengthen weaknesses in your dogs flush though chances are good that it will not elimenate a pointing reponse to flyers later on
Take care not to demonstrate the power of the gun to soon in a pups development.


For the Non-Slip retriever, duck and goose hunting dog: CONTINUING from step 4
5a) Pile work, including Mini-pile, Nine bumper pile; AKA Force to pile
6) 3-handed casting; teaching the 3 basic casts – “Back” and both “Over’s”, including 2-hands “Back”
7) Mini tee; includes collar conditioning to all basic commands, transferring to the go, stop, cast functions in micro dimension as preparation for the Single tee.
8) Single tee
9) Double tee
and these are the basics the foundation for the any advanced training that may be desired


Good training!

Cheers

Hal

[wayne]

Good morning Hal,

I've had/am having? this discussion with Maugh also.
I've elected to train my 9 month old airedale using the so called "clicker" method more or less using the book Positive Gun Dogs as my training template.
I've heard from numerous people why it won't work, but I am trying it anyway.

We are presently training the Sit, Heel, Here using this method.
So far it seems to be working well. I am getting an enthusiastic response on most of these and am presently introducing distractions to the above commands.

A couple of questions:
You said that "3) Hold automatically evolves to Walking “Hold, Heel, Sit”
I don't understand this as I was planning and am presently working on a method to teach the HOLD and will have to train each individual portion of this to ensure a complete behaviour. I expect to have to teach her the basic HOLD, the HOLD while standing, sitting, walking at heel etc. Some of these behaviours will be almost seemless as it will depend on how and where I teach her the basic command. For example while I'm teaching her to HOLD she is sitting, but I will have to "teach" her HOLD while heeling, walking etc.

I don't understand what you are saying when you say "A trained retrieve is essential to having a trained dog without it you are banking on accidental behavior" could you explain this differently? I take this to mean that you work with your dog to develop a retrieve rather than use a genetic based behaviour that may or may not be present when required.

By trained retrieve do you mean use a systematic approach to teach your dog how to retrieve?

The rest of the information that you presented, I don't know anything about right now as I am still teaching the basics and have yet to join a Gun Dog Club..

Wayne

[phil]

" Wayne Asks "You said that "3) Hold automatically evolves to Walking “Hold, Heel, Sit”
I don't understand this as I was planning and am presently working on a method to teach the HOLD and will have to train each individual portion of this to ensure a complete behaviour. I expect to have to teach her the basic HOLD, the HOLD while standing, sitting, walking at heel etc. Some of these behaviours will be almost seemless as it will depend on how and where I teach her the basic command. For example while I'm teaching her to HOLD she is sitting, but I will have to "teach" her HOLD while heeling, walking etc.

I don't understand what you are saying when you say "A trained retrieve is essential to having a trained dog without it you are banking on accidental behavior" could you explain this differently? I take this to mean that you work with your dog to develop a retrieve rather than use a genetic based behaviour that may or may not be present when required.

By trained retrieve do you mean use a systematic approach to teach your dog how to retrieve?

The rest of the information that you presented, I don't know anything about right now as I am still teaching the basics and have yet to join a Gun Dog Club..

1. Hold evolves from the siting position, then to the healing postion.
each step of the hold process evolves to a more complicated behavior. Sitting , Standing, walking, running, and then stopping.
standing and sitting all while holding the object. and finally deliverying the object to your hand.
As Fido progresses he should able to carry the item and then jump up onto a short table or platform all the while holding until you command the release or give command.
Once he is doing well then marks may be thrown all the while maitaining standard of delivery.
Do Not let you dog decide when he can or cannot do some thing during a work you have to be the boss.
It will be the toughest part of the training if you get through you will have a fine retriever

2. Wayne asks:
"I don't understand what you are saying when you say "A trained retrieve is essential to having a trained dog without it you are banking on accidental behavior" could you explain this differently? I take this to mean that you work with your dog to develop a retrieve rather than use a genetic based behaviour that may or may not be present when required."

The genetic behavior is to pick the item up and take it some where, however genically the dog does not know where where is unless we train them where where is. With out a solid retrieve asking a dog to make a blind retieve would be fruitless or even a mark retrieve would be an adventure unless the dog is conditioned. In other words great retrievers are made not born..sorry just the way it is.
Concerning quartering for the pheasant hunting dog joining Gun Club may not help much, if at all look for a Spaniel club to join they will be the best to help with your needs for the pheasant hunting dog Though they may not be much help if you are going to specialize in retriever

Concerning the book you mentioned Maugh and I have read some or all It . itis wild considering there is a photo of a dog in the book that I titled that the authors implied that "Hardy " had been clicker train to his title nothing could further from the truth.
Also a number slanderous comments About Kohler and Conrad Most.
M.Lardy and E.Graham concerning the use of negative stimuli and negative reinforcement

Normallly I might write an out line on training but will not get into specifics on an individual dog that I have not seen. Just to many reads that are missing to give a fair evaluation about the dogs progress and what they need next.
Personally I would use Evan Graham's Smartwork system, besides he has ton's of video's on You Tube
here is a link to Smart fetch Stick Fetch that is a classic

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PAIFgb3Ki0

cheers

Hal

[maugh]

Hal,
That is a great and succinct statement of the training program a dog needs to meet the minimal requirements of being a reliable retriever and/or flushing dog. We've seen a couple of hunters lately with talented dogs who have come to embrace exactly this program and to become successful in testing as well. One or both of them may end up field trialing. They are having the time of their lives and it is fun to train with them.
There is no greater motivator to train this program than having a talented dog out of fine breeding.
The trigger is set.
Regards,
Maugh

[deuce]

I've decided to go with Evan Graham's method of FF. Just out of curiosity, around what age have your airedales been ready for FF? My pup is currently 12 weeks. I am currently working bumper retrieves (going to grab a paint roller tomorrow as the bumper still seems a little heavy and awkward for her). Also, Come and sit. I just started leash training her on walks and will begin heel after a few more walks when she seems more comfortable. Around 4-5 months I am going to send her to a school to help with intro to water, birds, and gunfire for two weeks. When she comes back, I will work with her a bit more on sit, stay, heel and begin formalizing them probably around 5 months. I am guessing around 7 or 8 months it will be time for FF. Does this seem to be about on track or is it moving too fast? I have Ecollar trained a jagdterrier before around 5 months and he responded well, but I know they mature much faster than an airedale will.

[hicntry]

Deuce, if you are going with Evans program, you may want to go to www.versatiledogs.com if you have any questions. Evan is a regular there. There is aready a "Deuce" there so you may want to go with a different name.

[deuce]

Thanks