As a Retriever can the Dale Go here?

[phil]

check out this youtube of Evan Graham & Phil Carson and Zeke

www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJr63Lv6dL4&feature=related

This is what Maugh and I are exploring. You breeders pay close attention to hips and eyes.
Don't leave the light on we might not be back from the journey to soon!

Cheers

hal

[wayne]

Hi Hal,
Good video of a dog working. I'm afraid that I don't understand. What is the purpose of sending the dog out such a long distance to make a retrieve? What are you and Maugh exploring, extreme distance retrieves? If that's it, why?
Wayne

[phil]

Wayne, There is a little more going on in the video than just distance. There is treamendous influence off to left of the camera frame. The influence is a distraction to the dog. Then there is the sheer distance of 470 yrds 940 yrds round trip. Stamina, vision, drive,focus and years of training to push the envelop just to see who's blood line can take the challenge.
This is the real test of a breeding, physical and mental stress can be measured in a performance like this one.
When I was a teen Pres Kennedy said we would go to the Moon, why because it was there!
it is the same way with dogs Pushing the envelop finding how much they to give and how much better they can be through consistent training.
And that is why having the basic well founded in your dog is so important with out it that retrieve would be out of the question...and then you just lost that duck or worst you have to go for a walk and maybe give up other shooting opportunities, while you retrieved that cripple, what fun is that?
You saw in that video a single mark.... in a trial the set-up would have call for triple or a quad various distances and postions around the line. The dog would have been required to rememember all the marks and retrieve them in particular order now that calls for a dog that can handle complex problems. Is it in his training or is it in his breeding??? It sure is not natural. It really is complexity of the problem that sorts the great dogs from the good dogs.
And that is what the retriever game is all about. Oh Zeke, the dog in video No clicker training on that big guy.

Here is another vid by Evan Graham Duck Dog Basics

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz88RUxvNHE&NR=1

This may make more sense

Cheers

Hal

[wayne]

Hi Hal,
Thanks for the explanation.

I figured out that there was a distraction out there on the left.
The sheer distance, over land and water had me puzzled. I just couldn't see the need for it unless it was something that was being done just because...
I guess (just because I've never been to a full trial ) that a triple or quad? retrieve could be that distance if all the legs are added together. It just seemed a little odd to me that the dog was sent so far out. He is obviously a well trained animal.

I think that it is a combination of breeding and training. They go hand in hand. If you don't have the basic foundation (be it, mental, physical, desire etc) in training or breeding, your dog will be able to go only so far.

"Clicker training" as I have mentioned many times before is something new to me. I was brought up using the traditional methods of "training" dogs. I thought that I would give this an honest try and see what happens. Any way that you look at it, I am still laying down a solid foundation with solid skills that are usefull for the dog's lifetime. Some of the methods presently being used, I know from experience are far faster than what I'm trying right now, but it's OK to me if it takes a little while longer to learn a new skill. Learning is what it is all about. I am enjoying the time with my dog.

Wayne

[phil]

Wayne
One of the arguments that is often made against the distances that high performance retriever have work at is ' Well i would never send my dog on a bird that far way" or "I do not need a dog that has that kind of training"
Often overlooked is that dogs that handle extremely complex and long distant problems just never fail at normal hunting distances.
So Zeke would be fail proofed from 0-to 470yds . I have seen dogs fail 15 yrd marks and less because they have not been conditioned for actual hunting situations.
The other reason for the distance is to sort out the dogs that can and ones that can't.
Judges at retriever events are looking for the dogs that can.
Plain and simple doesn't matter how purty you think your dog is can they get'er done.
Off to training

Cheers

hal
ps will try to get some footage of Maugh and Madonna and Blake

[gearco]

To answer your original question, yes, the Airdale can do what the Lab is shown doing in the video. Graham Sharp at Sharp Retrievers has done two of Don's dogs with great success. Go to Graham's website and look at some of the pics. I highly recommend him.

[maugh]

The problem shown is typical of the National Retriever Field Trials either American or Canadian. What you see at these competitions is 99 per cent black labs. You don't see the other retriever breeds much.
I don't think you understand the difficulty of the problem. Cover changes, required angled entry into water at +350 yards and suction from guy that pretends to throw a mark out at about 150 yards (most Airedales can't mark over 60 yards). The dog actually was faulty by squaring up to shore and getting out on the wrong side of the bush. That fault would have got him dropped in the Nationals.

If there is an Airedale out there that can do that problem let him step forward and show that setup at the Nationals. Such a dog is probably an HRC Finished Dog. If any Airedale out there can do that problem, let's put money on it and I'll actually show up and watch. But I want evidence and not the usual empty talk.
However good advice to Wayne, get with a retriever pro if you really want to do this stuff. Al Arthur is my retriever pro. Hal works me on basics and transition so that my dogs have the background to gain some benefit from Al Arthur (finalist in the Retriever Nationals - there weren't many and Graham Sharp was not among them.)

Maugh

[phil]

Gearco
I'm sure you have an outstanding dog and I'm also sure that G. Sharpe is doing a fine job of training.
You should share that youtube link with your trainer and ask him if your guys are capable or on track in their training to handle 1/4 mile marks with influence, land and water.
I would love it if they could, it would send our training certainly in new directions.
All the best

Cheers

hal

[gearco]

Graham's website is www.sharpretrievers.com/ At this point he knows our dog's strong and weak points, and he knows how to motivate them. Many trainers have trouble doing that with a smart dog. Lost my dog last year; trying to get back in the spirit of getting another by lurking here.

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[phil]

Mr. Gearco
Sounds just great. I would always promote folks putting there dogs out with qualified pros, if for now other reason they would access too land,water, birds. And if they have insights in to the strengths and weaknesses of a dog that's all the better.
As for the website it's just fine, G. Sharp has work with retrievers
from the same lines that I have worked with namely the Candlewood dogs as noted in the pedigrees of some of his past and former stud dogs.

Thistle Dale would be very amazed at the dominance that the Candlewood dogs have had in Retriever field trial world the last 15 years or so. If he would do a pedigree search..
I once welp a CandleWood Tanks Alot litter, fine shooting dogs each and every one of them. Had a ball training them for the gun dog market.
The Dam was a San Juaquin Honcho grandaughter.

Hopefully you will have many years of productive hunting with Dales..

Cheers

Hal

[hicntry]

I should probably stay out of this but I think what you and Graham train for are as different a fur is to bird hunting Hal. Correct me if I am wrong. I think Graham trains gun dogs to hunt and put the meat on the table. You train them to compete.

[phil]

Hi Don, I wondered when the breeder would stop by. Great!! Gearco responded to a thread
really did not apply to his dogs. And for the most part your right about G Sharp's business,
he is building hunter companion dogs. Though if he had a client that was so inclined he would assist that person in developing his dog for test or trial. Trials are competition events, tests are performance events.
As I wrote to Gearco, I trust that he will have many years of enjoyment with his Dales.

Cheers

Hal