Clicker training, HERE and HEEL

[hicntry]

Since so many trainers have to crate their dogs to go to work, way is the secret? How do you control behavior with 1, 2, or three dogs when you are going to be gon for 10 hrs at work. How do you train them to not chase calves that run from them when you are two miles away. Can you do it with clicker training? All possy training? Reward? How come every kid on the block had his dog trained years ago. Dogs went everywhere with them and came when called. Are the dogs that much different or are the training methods that much different?

[phil]

Unless you plan on hunting cows with your dogs, I would think some serious "trash" calves breaking is in order. I would think not a good way to put weight on a calf being chased by a Dale.

Crate breaking is esential to simplyfing your dogs life, Dogs at home or on the circuit learn when the trainer/handler is ready to teach. It gives the dog some refuge and a safe place to digest the days lesson. Self learning by the dog is not an option unless you need or want an independant sub contractor. I cannot imagine any one wanting a self hunter, though I sure you are out there. a self hunter would be absolutely useless in a duck blind or pheasant field
Teach- force-reinforce the standards you need to build your dog.

By the way a historical question?
What training tool did the e-collar replace in serious retriever training back in the late 50's early 60's?? and into the 70's when I started training. The dogs that are the foundation of todays the Labrador Retriever field champions would have had this tool used on them!

Cheers

Hal

[hicntry]

One more time. Why can't people train compliance in a dog, and multiple dogs, in the total absence of a handler. No shock collars, no rewards. Nada, zip....but the house and even the trash bag full of chicken bones is still intact when you come home after work? How do you get multiple dogs to not chase calves when you are two miles away, sitting on the tailgate have a beer? I can see where some methods are a real asset in training specific behaviors when the handler is right there to que them for the response...but what about the dog knowing right from wrong when you are not there?

[oksaradt]

Feb 24, 2010 15:19:12 GMT -5 maugh said:

www.clickertrain.com
But as Ed says, "it all comes down to timing."
And with bad timing an intended reward (food, clicker, praise) becomes a punishment (a negative reinforcer, since it reinforces the wrong activity and shuts down the desired one) and conversely a poorly timed intended punishment (e-collar nick, leash pop, harsh voice) becomes a reward because it is associated with the wrong activity in the dog's mind and the original deed goes uncorrected (and if it was pleasurable to the dog, just doing it has reinforced it.)
Timing is only learned by getting a coach.
Regards,
Maugh

Oi Vey, convoluted logic, gotta love it. This is the same logic that creates the handlers that think they can use the e-collar for both reward and punishment. Now, the only time I consider getting shocked as a reward is when I can grab someone else's neck and send it on to them as the ground connection. 300 volts DC is exciting, but it tended to leave burns on my skin when I was work on those circuit packs, definitely an avoidance creator.


Hal mentioned Ms. Burmaster. I read one of her posts on how to negate a behavior. It was passive negation or ignoring the dog when it was performing a "bad thing". I just had to crack up at this with any of my ‘dales in mind. Ignore them and they take it as carte’ blanche to do what they wish. But, he's right, she's the Airedale community's clicker training star. This may work with the softer show 'dales, but not with a high drive working dog.

I learned my timing in the martial arts. My student's biggest complaint with me is that if they don't reward fast enough then I often do it for them without thinking. I have to focus to just watch and keep my mouth shut. I accept their complaint as I can't work their dogs in the field. Maybe I should get an e-collar for the handlers I train....yeaaaaa I like it.




Jim

[maugh]

OKJIMBO
"I have to focus to just watch and keep my mouth shut."
So why don't you?
Regards,
Maugh

[wayne]

Good afternoon all,
Thanks for your responses. I'll try and answer the questions or comments if I can.

First thing as I stated previously, I'm not a skilled "clicker" trainer. My explanations of clicker training make not be exactly correct but I thought that I would generally give my impression as most people, if they are so inclined, would go to the proper sites and get the real info. You are right my timing was poor, it may be better now, as I have been practising.


hicntry
My GSD is not crated when we are not home, does not chase cows, etc. She has an excellent recall, in fact her favourite place is in the back of the SUV with the hatch open, conventionally trained and now 8 yrs old
Katie is not left unattended yet, because being a young dog she is not dependable. She is very good in the house and it appears as though she will not have to be crated when we are not there, when she matures. She is crated at night. She will and does chase anything, any time, any where and is on a leash except when in the fenced in compound. I was pretty impressed that I could call her to me while she was actively digging out a mouse/shrew.
I don't know how I would know for certain what my dog is doing a mile away from me. I hope that she is never that far from me as I am trying to train her to be a retriever.

Brandon
She is a chasing machine. She also likes to retrieve and is very interesting in anything flying. If I don't wreck her, I think that she will work out fine as a retriever. If I can't get the responses that I want one way then I will try something else or move on to another discipline that maybe more in line with her talents.

I may not be doing exactly clicker training, but am trying to train Katie using a minimum of force. My timing is poor to non existent in some of the videos and is something that I am working on. The other reason that I'm not using clicker in some of the videos is that I'm trying to fade it out and reward using a combination of voice, treats, etc. The clicker is not a reward but marks a successful task exactly (if my timing is right on) when the task is completed. Clicker trainers say the click marks the end of the behaviour.

.Jax
Consequences - they can be active or passive.
E collars may have a place in training but I prefer not to use one. The giant hole in the training that you made mention to indicates to me that the training activity was not taken down to small enough steps or the trainer/handler was not reading his/her dog correctly and progressed faster than they should have.
Katie uses her nose extensively daily and is always finding dead mice and shrews under approx 1.5 feet of snow. She investigates and tracks anything out of the normal rabbit tracks, fox tracks, mice burrows. I can tell just by watching her when walking home if my wife had driven by in her car recently.

oksardkt
You are correct "real clicker" savy people would indeed have fits reading my explanation. I may not be actually doing clicker training, but I'm trying to.
I intentially put these videos out there even though they are not pretty to enable me to watch myself and get the feedback that you all are providing.
Regarding the grave finding expedition. I would probably do something very similar to what you are suggesting. In my case, releasing her to run, is her reward for doing well at the exercise. This is also a release mentally as well. Learning new tasks iae hard on a dog, even if they enjoy it. We are now at the point where I'm asking her to heel and she is doing it and getting into the "correct" position from a variety of locations, and receives a reward - treats or verbal.
If you watched the poor attempt of me trying to get Katie to drop the bumper by offering her a treat, you can see how fast you can go wrong. This is a direct result of me
listening to someone's idea of how to accomplish what I wanted. My mistake and we are working to correct.

I find SAR very interesting. How do you tell if your puppy/dog has what it takes for this?

ed
You are correct. I use every thing except the E collar.

phil
Thanks for the info. I don't want to be first. I just am trying out a new to me version of "clicker training". As we corresponded previously, I'm giving this a try as I don't seem how I can hurt anything and best of all I get to "play"or spend time with my dog. I needed to have a goal in mind with my training and I chose retrieving. If she or I don't work thru this then I'll try something else with her. No training/learning is wasted.

maugh
You are correct, Timing is everything. That is why I went back to a basic thing called targeting as I was going nowhere fast with the so called OUT. A coach is certainly helpful, but I presently don't have any available locally. So the next best is video, watch myself and comments from people like yourselves on this board.
I have watched numerous videos of you and your dogs. Even though we don't necessarily agree on the E collar, I still say your dogs are doing a good job and look like they are enjoying themselves.

Recall wise. Katie comes very well. I call her name, then whistle 3 times and wait. If she doesn't come within 3 - 5 minutes (she could be on the other side of the 11 acre lot) I do the same thing again, wait, then go looking for her. Typically she shows up within 3 minutes.
This is steadily improving. I've watched her thru the bush and if she hears her name she perks up and when she hears the whistle she comes a booting it.

Heeling off leash in the bush lot on the path. Yesterday she heeled when asked,she went approx 1600 ft with no clicker, few rewards and lots of praise (randomly given). This was unusual but the duration of her heeling is increasing steadily. I give her a release command and off she goes - this is her best reward right now.

Walking home, I now keep her on a short leash and she walks loosely in position with very little surging or slow stepping.

Thanks for the comments and insight
If so inclined this is our latest video. Timing is better, clicker in use. Dog knows what I'm asking for
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRMJRMAJeao
Wayne

[phil]

Wayne,
How long is this dog going to live? 15-20-25yrs if so then you can experiment with it's training and start over whenever it suits you. But probable more 10-12 you better get on with training you have a window of opportunity you only get to wasted once.
Yes training is wasted because nothing in reality was learned. Dogs are AMORAL creatures, they do not know the difference between right from wrong. And if your just fooling that katie dog shame on you.
Contact Corally Burmeister

Hal

[wayne]

Hal,
Why would you write something like that?
Dogs don't stop learning, we just stop teaching them.
Training is not wasted. Katie now knows: HEEL, HERE, DOWN, SIT all basics that are required to start a dog in any discipline. We are in the process of proofing them and adding distractions.
We are working on HOLD, OUT. What could possibly be wrong with those?
Why would you say the training is wasted because nothing in reality is learned? If that is the case then I guess Katie just absorbed the lessons and somehow figured out all by herself to respond appropriately to the words or commands.
I looked at Coral Burmeister's site and it is similar to lots of others out there. Yes, it appears as though I was training with a clicker vs clicker training but that's not my intent nor am I doing that.
I don't run down your method of training your dogs.
If you don't like what I'm doing, fine. Your opinion is your opinion. BUT when you start trashing my dog:
What in earth does amoral have to do with anything? What is right and what is wrong?
I really don't understand what you are referring to when you say: if your just fooling that katie dog shame on you. Fooling her how? By attempting to train her using an unconventional perhaps kinder method than you may chose to use?
I take exception when you say imply that I am wasting Katie's short time on this earth. How in the wide world would you think to write something like that?

Wayne

[oksaradt]

Feb 24, 2010 17:58:18 GMT -5 maugh said:

OKJIMBO
"I have to focus to just watch and keep my mouth shut."
So why don't you?
Regards,
Maugh

As long as my BS alarm doesn't go off, I'm content to just watch the chest thumping and proselytizing.

I fully agreed with Ed's statement.


Wayne,
What I look for in a SAR candidate is in the SAR section. It's a long thread that's been fully explored by multiple handlers. I prefer to find the right dog for the job rather than force a dog into my version of what it should be. I can't be there to zap it if it doesn't follow my straight line but follows its nose instead. i personally prefer the dog that follows its nose.

Regards,

Jim

[phil]

Wayne,
Nothing personal about my comments at all. Your dog like my dog has a relatively short life span. sure we wish their productive years were longer, but they're not. As for my training methods fire away they have work with literally all breeds of dogs in the field. At one workshop I spent 15 minutes int he morning with Dr. Hampton's Chow (Posh) and we were shooting chukars over the dog in the afternoon. at same day with a Bedlington Terrier IMHO the best upland terrier at H/W that weekend 4 years later the BED. Terrier revisted H/W dog still good to on its's retrieves of dead birds
so training must be on some sort of schedule that allows the dog time to utilize the skills that it has been taught. If in deed training is what we want to call it.
I have for years witness this so call kinder,gentler system of development. And my experience says that a 2yr project gets turned in 5 or 7 yrs. and that is documented and witness by a member on this board. and that was with two different breeds.
Now I realize that Airedale are "different" to train than the other less talented breeds,at least that is what I have been told, Though I found two individual Airedales that could be Taught, Forced and reinforced to a finished level in 18 months and still have amazing energy. Both Land and water
By the way in your "hold" video you did use force so that gig is up you might as well finish force braking the tried and true method ( do you even know where you used the force) and quit rewarding Katie for dropping the bumper.


Get with a real klicker trainer! You need the help!

Hal

[wayne]

Phil,
Thanks for your input.
I may have used "force". I have never indicated that I was anti anything, just that I preferred to try something other than what I normally do.
As previously mentioned I know that I need the help.
I'm definitely not the caliber of trainer that you are, but am working with my dog, training, both her and myself the best that I can.
I am making mistakes but so far have done nothing that can't be remedied.
Yup, I made a mistake rewarding Katie for dropping the bumper. That was a direct result of me taking someone else's half baked idea and not continuing with the training process that I had begun.
I'm watching out for that now and am trying to stick with a training plan that makes sense to me.
Of course I use force, its my fall back routine when I get tired or frustrated. And yes I know that I shouldn't be training when in this state. Also something I'm watching for.
So, we are working on the basics, - it's winter and cold, spring is coming. Is there anything else that we can or should be working on?
Wayne

[oksaradt]

Wayne,
In the dog world it's possible to find literally any opinion that fits your own. Often this is to the detriment of the end result, but should probably still be explored. I found this article with 10 minutes of google. It made total sense to me, but I'm definitely not a duck hunter nor retriever trainer.

www.ducks.org/Hunting/RetrieverTraining/108/FiveKeyPointsforTrainingYourRetriever.html?poe=retriever

Since even I have heard of Robert Milner, it can't be all bad.


Jim

[ed]

Is there anything else that we can or should be working on?

Train in an envvironment with distraction, not just your house or yard. Other dogs around have value.
In the vid above I never really had issues of "steadiness".
I attribute this to early training in Schutzhund for the "Long Down"
Basically the dog is under utmost distraction with people and dogs heeling retrieving jumping and running in front of him while he is on a down.
This learned "self" restraint iis easily transferable to other venues. In the long down you the handler can not be in sight
of the dog...a good exercise.

[wayne]

odsaradt,
Thanks for the heads up. I already have the DU site set up as one of my favourites. As you say if you look hard enough, you can find anything to confirm you point of view. Most information is based on some kind of truth, some times you just have to dig it out.
I read it all, take what I want and let the rest go.
There is a real temptation for someone like myself to switch around with training systems as they all sound pretty good. What you end up with is nothing. I demonstrated this to myself by attempting the OUT using someone elses half baked concept of how to do it, I was wrong, wrong, wrong. Now I have to go back and repair the damage and restart with something that I know works. No harm done, just wasted time and effort for no reason.
So for right now I'm concentrating on basic obedience with some side things thrown in to keep us both interested.

I read numerous postings on the SAR site. It sounds interesting but doesn't look like its something that I would like to get into. I am constantly amazed how well the dog's noses work.
I was first introduced with this while doing tracking in Schutzhund with my GSD.

Wayne

[wayne]

ed,
Thanks for the info.
My GSD and I were involved with Schutzhund years ago. Some of the same training principles that I learned there, I'm using on Katie.
My GSD had and still has an amazing down. I tried her on sheep herding. 5 sheep in an open field with a herding instructor and myself, no lead, no muzzle. I managed to tell her DOWN from a distance with what everyone thought was spectacular results... she went down... which I was confident she would due to our training with distractions of all sorts and situations. This was while she was in high prey drive, no once but numerous times, right up to and including her forcing the sheep into the pen thru a gate. It really was something to see and experience first hand. Genetics?
Wayne