|
Post by bonefinder on Nov 21, 2010 11:45:05 GMT -5
Jim, the last couple of times I trained with the cops. we had an odd experience each time. Both times, we were doing building work which we have done together with the same dogs many times before. On most occasions, drugs will be put in the same room as bones or teeth. Because it really isn't realistic to stick a couple of dried bones in a closet and then work them 30 minutes later, I oftentimes just have them use cadaver level teeth. If they DO use bones, I have them put a few together. A few weeks ago, nearly ALL the narc dogs hit on a jar with quite a few teeth in it. We were all puzzled by that. They've never done that before. Last week, when we were doing locker work, Porter solidly hit on a locker that had 1o grams of mushrooms in it. Now it is possible that somebody cut their finger or that there was some trace blood or dead tissue in the locker, but I doubt it. I was hoping that the bag had cocaine in it because Rick had a theory that really brings a question to mind. When these teeth are extracted, the patient is either under some type of anesthesia and for sure, they are heavily injected with lidocaine. I don't know the details of compound derivates ( Shelly, do you know?) but i would think there is some shared compound between lidocaine ( xylocaine etc.) and cocaine. This MIGHT explain why all the narc dogs were hitting on dirty teeth.......but of course, it doesn't explain why Porter hit on mushrooms. Any ideas on this, for both scenarios? Bonnie
|
|
reed
Junior Hunter/worker
Posts: 25
|
Post by reed on Nov 21, 2010 18:57:56 GMT -5
Hi,
When they place the hides are they using rubber gloves? If not it is very possible the dogs are hitting on the human odor left on the hides by the person who set the hides out. Another possibility is the dogs are hitting on the odor left when the other dogs alerted. (slobbering, scratching, etc) Also make sure the dogs toy is not hitting on the hide during the reward. Contamination is always a very real concern when training with other dogs and handlers. Just some ideas.
Reed
|
|
|
Post by oksaradt on Nov 21, 2010 20:43:17 GMT -5
On the narc dogs hitting on the fresh teeth, it's very possible they are picking up on the nerve blocker. Easy way to find out is to see what they do on historic level teeth that have been cleaned where the drug would have been boiled off. Current studies have shown that some narc dogs have cocained sensitivity to 0.5 ppb, so I'd be extra thorough in cleaning teeth.
On Porter and the mushrooms, there's several possibilities and you'll have to experiment to determine the problem. 1) If mushrooms and HRs have been in the same room often when you train with the PD then it's possible that you rewarded Porter for mushroom scent that you weren't aware of. Set aside a clean area, have the PD hide mushrooms, and you work it first not knowing it's a blind. They can do that by setting you up multiple rooms so that you just don't know. If Porter hits on just the mushrooms and no other dogs have worked before him, then you have a proofing problem to deal. 2) If, as Reed suggested, Porter is cheating by reading signs that previous dog teams have left then the negative will be a negative and you'll have to start setting Porter up by asking the dog teams to work a different drug that can be removed when they are done. They all reward their dogs on the proper location, removed the drug, let the room settle for 30 minutes, then you work it as a blind again with them watching. If Porter hits where they all rewarded their dogs, then he's cheating. That's not a big deal to fix once you know what's going on.
3)If your PD aren't using gloves to places sources, then re-educate them. And, while you're at it, ask them to leave a clean glove in one of the rooms you are to work (AWAY from your HRs) and see if Porter is hitting on latex or whatever glove material they use.
Jim
|
|
|
Post by bonefinder on Nov 23, 2010 0:57:03 GMT -5
<<When they place the hides are they using rubber gloves? If not it is very possible the dogs are hitting on the human odor left on the hides by the person who set the hides out. >>
They always wear gloves when putting out my sources. They do not wear gloves when putting out drugs.
<<Another possibility is the dogs are hitting on the odor left when the other dogs alerted. (slobbering, scratching, etc)>>
Yes, I thought about that. The other dogs worked the locker first and it is possible he was hitting on where other dogs alerted, but this has not been something he has done, historically. It was also a very definitive hit.
<< Also make sure the dogs toy is not hitting on the hide during the reward. Contamination is always a very real concern when training with other dogs and handlers. Just some ideas.>>
Reed, good ideas.....and thanks for sharing. I actually deviate from traditional narc trained dogs with how I reward. Porter knows/sees his reward toy, as soon as he gets out of my truck. I reward him close to source but never ON source. The contamination issue is always a concern. I am long overdue to clean my bones/containers.....swap containers out for new ones. Your post is a good reminder to get ON that soon. Thanks. What type scent work do you do, Reed? Nice to have a new "face" chime in. Bonnie
Reed[/quote]
|
|
|
Post by bonefinder on Nov 23, 2010 1:09:30 GMT -5
>>On the narc dogs hitting on the fresh teeth, it's very possible they are picking up on the nerve blocker. Easy way to find out is to see what they do on historic level teeth that have been cleaned where the drug would have been boiled off. Current studies have shown that some narc dogs have cocained sensitivity to 0.5 ppb, so I'd be extra thorough in cleaning teeth.>> This would make total sense to me. These dogs are very good. We were really wondering that virtually ALL the dogs hit on the teeth. It was a large container of teeth so there could have been a large pool of nerve blocking agent. I would love to hear from anybody on the list who has a biochemical background......how lidocaine/cocaine are similar or dissimilar. <<On Porter and the mushrooms, there's several possibilities and you'll have to experiment to determine the problem. 1) If mushrooms and HRs have been in the same room often when you train with the PD then it's possible that you rewarded Porter for mushroom scent that you weren't aware of. Set aside a clean area, have the PD hide mushrooms, and you work it first not knowing it's a blind. They can do that by setting you up multiple rooms so that you just don't know. If Porter hits on just the mushrooms and no other dogs have worked before him, then you have a proofing problem to deal. >> So, I want to be sure what you are suggesting......if we are working a building.......we will take some mushrooms and set them out in one room as a blind......HRD in another room, and work Porter first and ASSURE that he does not alert specifically on the mushrooms? That is easy enough to set up. << If, as Reed suggested, Porter is cheating by reading signs that previous dog teams have left then the negative will be a negative and you'll have to start setting Porter up by asking the dog teams to work a different drug that can be removed when they are done. They all reward their dogs on the proper location, removed the drug, let the room settle for 30 minutes, then you work it as a blind again with them watching. If Porter hits where they all rewarded their dogs, then he's cheating. That's not a big deal to fix once you know what's going on.>> I get it. Makes sense. I don't think he is alerting on where other dogs have alerted, but it is possible. Never say never I think the lesson learned, on a larger scale, is that we should always mix up the order in which the dogs run.......and be very mindful of WHICH drug is being used and if there is any possibility of cross contamination. Frankly, it never occurred to me that the narc dogs would hit on teeth, and vice versa. <<If your PD aren't using gloves to places sources, then re-educate them. And, while you're at it, ask them to leave a clean glove in one of the rooms you are to work (AWAY from your HRs) and see if Porter is hitting on latex or whatever glove material they use.>> Yes, they always use gloves for my sources and absolutely......it is time to double check proofing off latex gloves again. Sure can't hurt to do that. Reed and Jim, thanks for the good suggestions. Bonnie Jim[/quote]
|
|
|
Post by kf5dvj on Nov 23, 2010 7:23:56 GMT -5
While lidocaine and cocaine have some of the same physiological affects they are actually very different from each other in structure. To avoid any long nomenclature lets just say cocaine is is more circular in shape and lidocaine is more of a long chain. They also have very different functional groups. Now for the interesting part. Cocaine is sometimes cut with lidocaine to make it appear as if the cocaine is much more pure than it really is. Lidocaine is a much stronger local anaesthetic than cocaine. So when it is tested by the buyer it numbs the lips more intensely. This being said, most likely the cocaine the officers are training their dogs with contain lidocaine or other local anaesthetics and threrefore their dogs will alert on both. You could test this by obtaining some lidocaine or other commonly used anaesthetics and see if the drug dogs will alert on it. Lidocaine (along with other drugs used to cut cocaine) and cocaine and its metabolites often show up in our patients that are positive for cocaine when perform a comprehensive drug screen using GC/MS. As far as teeth having lidocaine in them still, I do not know. I will have to test this. Lidocaine does metabolize fairly rapidly but since we get out teeth from the dentist then yes it will not surprise me if there is some. However, all this doesn't explain alerting on mushrooms in the locker. This reminds me of Porter and the band aid in Shreveport. Does he usually alert on mushrooms or only when they were in the locker? There could be a number of things going on here.
Shelly
|
|
|
Post by bonefinder on Nov 24, 2010 1:01:24 GMT -5
<<While lidocaine and cocaine have some of the same physiological affects they are actually very different from each other in structure. To avoid any long nomenclature lets just say cocaine is is more circular in shape and lidocaine is more of a long chain. They also have very different functional groups. >> That makes sense, chemically, but are they so different in the nose of a dog? That is the mystery. <<Now for the interesting part. Cocaine is sometimes cut with lidocaine to make it appear as if the cocaine is much more pure than it really is.>> That makes total sense to me. Save the druggies some money << Lidocaine is a much stronger local anaesthetic than cocaine. So when it is tested by the buyer it numbs the lips more intensely. >> Very good to know. I will share this with the narc dog co trainers. This leads to a question though....slightly off topic.....if lidocaine is stronger, why is it not the preferred abused substance over cocaine? What about marcaine? << This being said, most likely the cocaine the officers are training their dogs with contain lidocaine or other local anaesthetics and threrefore their dogs will alert on both. You could test this by obtaining some lidocaine or other commonly used anaesthetics and see if the drug dogs will alert on it. >> EXCELLENT suggestion. I have access to lidocaine and will absolutely add to our repertoire for training. <<As far as teeth having lidocaine in them still, I do not know. I will have to test this. Lidocaine does metabolize fairly rapidly but since we get out teeth from the dentist then yes it will not surprise me if there is some. >> Is there a way you can test for this? That would be very interesting results. It does make sense that the recently pulled teeth would be "bathed" in lidocaine. Let us know any further info you find out. <<However, all this doesn't explain alerting on mushrooms in the locker. This reminds me of Porter and the band aid in Shreveport. Does he usually alert on mushrooms or only when they were in the locker? There could be a number of things going on here.>> no, it surely does not explain it. To the best of my knowledge and memory, he has never alerted on drugs before. The bandaid in Shreveport was legit. Serum/dead human scent on a bandaid in the same room where another source was. That was an incredible day, I must say. However, bandaids with serum does not equate to mushrooms, so that is a mystery to me. I know when he is "false alerting" just to get a reward and when he is ALERTING. This was an all out alert. Hands down. Not sure what it meant but to be sure, we need to proof him off mushrooms. Shelly, so glad you provided this great info. Bonnie Shelly[/quote]
|
|
reed
Junior Hunter/worker
Posts: 25
|
Post by reed on Nov 24, 2010 2:32:23 GMT -5
Hi,
I am a K9 officer in NW Iowa. I am on my 3rd dog and do all my own training, but I oftentimes train with the large County south of me. They have 4 or 5 dogs and other depts also come from time to time, so contamination is a very real concern. The problem with training with other dogs you don't REALLY know what they are smelling and what you are rewarding them for finding. I mix it up with a lot of training where he is the only dog or at least the first dog on the hide. I will also try to proof him off of known scents like rubber gloves, dog slobber, toys etc.
Reed
|
|
|
Post by kf5dvj on Nov 26, 2010 3:48:44 GMT -5
Bonnie, You are right, we do not know for sure what the association is between chemical structure of a substance and the scent it produces. So why do druggies use cocaine and not lidocaine? Sorry for the confusion I caused. Lidocaine is a stronger local anaesthetic, however it doesn't have all the same effects as cocaine. Cocaine gives the person a powerful high in addition to the numbing. I am sure there are other drugs out there that would be preferred but cost and availability has to be considered. Although the drugs the dogs are training on are supposed to come from the DEA, I am pretty sure the DEA only weights the drugs and measures the purity before distribution. Therefore they are unaware of the other contents in the sample. Feel free to correct me on this as I do not personally have experience with this. I will look into testing the teeth. Yes it can be tested using GC/MS. Back to the mushrooms in the locker. Did you move the mushrooms to a different locker and see if Porter alerted? Or try different mushrooms and see how he responded? Mushrooms are often very moldy so it could be a confusing situation. Just curious if you have done anymore experimenting with it. Shelly
|
|
|
Post by oksaradt on Nov 26, 2010 9:11:43 GMT -5
Reed, Welcome to the discussion. What venues do you train your dogs in? If it's narcotics, do you yearly cert with a national agency or state? Do you cross-train in other venues, i.e. trailing, apprehension, etc? All your points are indeed valid. I'm just trying to gain perspective.
I know a lot of HRD handlers that get so suspicious of other's sources that they only train on their own sources. While I'd thought (untill Shelly's illumination) most narcotics were straight forward as to source material, remains have vast ways of contamination, some natural and most unnatural. My attitude is to build a network of handlers whom I can trust to be responsible with their scent sources because the more variety I can work my dogs on the more experienced they become in the scent world. Some handlers will throw all their sources into the same container with the attitude of "remains are remains." The end result is the dog is always looking for the same pot pouri of scent regardless of what the handler puts out. If that handler let their remains get moldy and/or contaminated then who knows what the dog is being rewarded to find. I'm not sure what the typical narcotics officer stores their sources in. I know from experience that the typical ziploc bag is actually very porous to many scents and gives off a scent itself due to its petrochemical nature. Does one have to worry in a similar fashion that working someone else's ecstacy could also be working cocaine as well?
There are also handlers that store their remains in the vehicle right next to the dog crate, their flags, the food reward, their toy reward, etc such that they work other handler's dogs on their blinds and then claim then dog is hitting on flags (when the flags have been soaked in human remains scent). Aslo, the dog is enundated with scent as long as it is in the vehicle without being rewarded or expected to alert has to add to confusion for the dog. Do you come across all these same concerns in the narcotics training venue?
Jim
|
|
reed
Junior Hunter/worker
Posts: 25
|
Post by reed on Nov 27, 2010 2:19:15 GMT -5
Jim,
My dog is dual certified in patrol and narcotics detection. We certify yearly through the USPCA which is the most popular assoc in our area. Manufactured drugs do vary widely in odor, depending on the formula and ingredients used in making it, this seems to be especially true with meth. Pot even though it may vary in odor it is consistent enough to not give the same problem. This is why I find it important to train with other agencies as it gives me access to their training aids and them to mine. At certifications there always seems to be people who do not get outside sources to train with and it can cause problems. Another problem to be aware of is quantity. I have seen some pretty good dogs act confused and tentative when exposed to large amounts of narcotics in comparison to what they train with. Occasionally we like to set up training where MUCH larger hides are used. Storage is handled differently from dept to dept, but without care contamination is a very real possibility. As far as getting bored with a odor is over exposed w/o a reward, I suppose it is possible, but I have never personally experienced it. When I tell the dog to hunt the dope he knows what the game is and is always willing to play.
Reed
|
|
|
Post by oksaradt on Nov 29, 2010 15:19:14 GMT -5
Sorry for the delay in replying. I've been on-call and living with dial-pulse for five days.
Maybe Shelly can tell us if Meth varies in chemical structure depending on the cooking method and if dogs need to be trained on the varieties known in their area? I believe in my area that most of the narctoics dogs train for four or five scents that are the "drugs of choice in their jurisdiction.
One of the "experts" in HRD also comes from the drug/accellerant background. Her main philosophy is that most dogs can't hit on whole bodies, but instead alert a distance away due to the same phenomena you are talking about with minute sources. I've only seen this occur a few times and, come to think of it, one occassion was with narc dogs trying to cross-train into HRD. We tried to talk them out of doing this many times, but it was their nickel at the seminar.
The source in the case above was not even a whole body, just a very odiferous source that was high in ammonia. The issue was solved fairly quickly by continuing to work the dog into the source. I do think it's possible if someone only trains on small bones and a few teeth that they'll create an over-sensitive dog. Just as in your example, the best solution is to train with other handlers and pool sources or to collect lots of sources over the years and pool those....easier and legal in HRs versus narcotics.
The storage of sources next to the dog in the vehicle isn't a case of boredom, but one of confusion. Do you ever train your dog such that you don't give it the hunt command, but do have it in an area where there is an obvious narcotic source? Wouldn't you want the dog to tell you about the narcotics present despite you not giving the command?
Jim
|
|
|
Post by kf5dvj on Nov 30, 2010 2:41:42 GMT -5
Methamphetamine is cooked a number of ways. Alot of times when meth is cooked there are several other byproducts. Amphetamine (which can be obtained by Rx) is one of them. This is also the first metabolite in the body that methamphetamine breaks down to. Each method of cooking results in a different composition of chemical and there a a lot of ways to cook meth. Some methods actually yeild very little or no methamphetamine but will produce a similar enough compound to get a person high. As Jim said, LE tend to only train on 4-5 drugs of choice for the area they are in. I know for sure that there are dogs who have only been trained on heroine, cocaine, meth, and pot and these dogs will also alert on MDMA (ecstasy) even though they are not trained on it.
|
|
|
Post by bonefinder on Jan 2, 2011 22:37:34 GMT -5
Thought I would provide an update. We used some lidocaine in our last training session and the drug dogs were completely indifferent to it. Porter had an interesting reaction and did a quick head crank and then moved on. We had a bristojet stuffed in a locker, in a row of lockers along a wall. No idea why the drug dogs hit on cadaver level teeth. Only the dogs seem to know. Bonnie
|
|
|
Post by kf5dvj on Jan 5, 2011 1:17:41 GMT -5
Thanks for the update.
|
|