Core Traits of the Working Airedale

[Ryan]

I moved this post from the registry thread as I believe that it needs it's own home. I'm curious to know what inherant abilities and traits people think a working Airedale should have. Off the top of my head here is what I came up with. To me, these traits apply to any working activity, be it hunting, man-work or almost anything else. Most if not all of them stem from the original purpose of the breed - as an all-purpose hunting dog.

Core traits:

high prey drive
moderate defense drive
barks at treed game
a nose that works
healthy, free of defects
steady to gunfire
swimming ability and desire

- how do we know that the dog has these traits? test 'em, trial 'em, hunt 'em.

Defense drive - many hunters will say this trait is not needed. I say look at the original purpose of the dog - hunter of feather/fur AND family/farm dog (implies protector of property). Some 'dales still have this trait, many/most do not. Don't you want a dog that will gaurd the truck that has your prized firearm inside?

I believe that any working Airedale organization needs to put these traits on paper and promote them in any way possible. Breeding of dogs that have all of these traits will ensure that they are not lost.

If all of these simple core traits were adopted, how many of our dogs would make the grade?

[Alisa]

I would also add:
Independent thinking ability (figuring stuff out on their own)
Strong drive/interest in learning new things (or tricks)
Cheerful attitude in both work and play (always game for anything)
On the physical side:
High energy and agility (run, jump, flip 360, etc..)
High endurance and pain tolerance

[Robert]

Ryan,

I don't see anything that might interfere with certain types of work. Some people might think a high prey drive would be undesirable in herding dogs, but others think it's prey drive that causes dogs to herd.

They are all traits that I would want to see in my Airedale.

Robert

[Ryan]

alisazap said:

I would also add:
Independent thinking ability (figuring stuff out on their own)
Strong drive/interest in learning new things (or tricks)
Cheerful attitude in both work and play (always game for anything)
On the physical side:
High energy and agility (run, jump, flip 360, etc..)
High endurance and pain tolerance

I agree 100% with these also. I fear though, that if the trait is too subjective, that it will be difficult to judge. I guess ultimately prey/defense drives are both subjective. And for obvious and practical purposes, difficult to judge requirements will only cause setbacks, arguments and divisions. Simple is better, but where is the line between simple and more difficult?

What is the purpose of defining traits if there is no system for evaluating them?

[Ryan]

Robert said:

Some people might think a high prey drive would be undesirable in herding dogs, but others think it's prey drive that causes dogs to herd.

Some hunters will say that swimming ability is not needed. Too me though swimming ability is a traditional breed characteristic and should not be lost.

This process is not easy with such a versatile breed. Traditional traits may not be desireable in this day and age <- should they be retained for the sake of keeping the breed pure, or should the breed evolve like most everything else. These questions are not new.

[Alisa]

I think the purpose of defining traits is more for the breeders and puppy buyers. I certainly would not suggest setting up any kind of registry that would attempt to “judge” dogs on these. If there is to be a working registry, let it be proved with Titles and Certifications. Ultimately what particular title the dog holds and the type of training received is important to the owner. If my puppy’s mom was a SAR dog and Dad held a K9 PRO title, I wouldn’t hesitate a bit. I am a little shaky w/hunting titles (O! Great Hunters! Please forgive the city girl), but I always assumed that good hunting dog required as much training as any in other field, and maybe even more brains on the part of the dog (as they have to work independently from the handler)

[hicntry]

Alisa, that is the real beauty of a well bred fur dog. The only training is "get back here and get in the dam truck" (prefaced with a sincere" please" helps with airedales more so than with hounds.) and of course, breaking them off livestock and such. If bred right, you don't EVER have to teach them to hunt or try to increase their drive. Fur hunting SHOULD be a totally natural thing to a hunting dog. It is an experience, sitting on the tailgate of the truck, at midnight, listening to a pack of hounds running game through the canyon maybe 1000 or more feet ft below you. The funny thing is, They are your dogs and you "know" exactly what they are doing, and usually you can pretty much guess what game they are running by the way the game lines out or circles. This is the capability that all hunting dogs should possess. Extreme prey drive, ability to run, nose, smarts. When it comes to protection work, Confidence should be at the very head of the list(I don't consider confidence a big deal for a straight up fur dog.) Bird work requires confidence but it may not have to be at the top of the list.

[melanie]

alisazap said:

as they have to work independently from the handler)

I'm sure other breeds work independently of their handler, but Airedales are highly coveted for their independence and ability to work away from the handler. Perhaps that is a core trait of the Airedale.

I think the suggestion that titles prove the dog is valid. Not mom or dad's titles, or pedigrees, but the actual dog. I think this is the only way to begin a hunting registry/working registry. Proof of the dog itself.


[glow=red,2,300]Mel[/glow]

[Maverick]

alisazap said:

but I always assumed that good hunting dog required as much training as any in other field, and maybe even more brains on the part of the dog (as they have to work independently from the handler)

In short, teaching a well bred fur hunting dog to hunt is like teaching a fish to swim! Teaching the dog to return on command is always good, as is leaving domestic animals alone. Experience will make them better though!

Although most bird dogs receive considerable training, I have owned one that did it all with absolutely no training! The few attempts I made, only screwed him up.

[hicntry]

melanie said:

alisazap said:

as they have to work independently from the handler)

I'm sure other breeds work independently of their handler, but Airedales are highly coveted for their independence and ability to work away from the handler. Perhaps that is a core trait of the Airedale.

I think the suggestion that titles prove the dog is valid. Not mom or dad's titles, or pedigrees, but the actual dog. I think this is the only way to begin a hunting registry/working registry. Proof of the dog itself.


[glow=red,2,300]Mel[/glow]

Actually Mel, the only thing really proved by a dog having a war chest full of titles is that the parents are capable of throwing a great dog. What it actually says about that particular dog is that he is proof of what the parents can throw.....titled or not. That particular dog may not be able to reproduce anything close to what he is.. In many venues, it also may say more about the trainer than the dog. That is why I like "Basic Instinct " so much. Is that the one with Sharon Stone?? ;D ;D ;D

[Robert]

"In many venues, it also may say more about the trainer than the dog."

That may be true Don, but you can't train what isn't there.

Robert

[hicntry]

In a lot of cases you can Robert but you will only end up with a so so dog. Why do you suppose trainers spend so much time trying to increase a dogs drive. In a fur dog, if they don't "have" maximum drive....they are out of there. They don't try to put it there if it wasn't born with it. Where do you think all the mediocre dogs in the different venues come from. They didn't have the goods but what you are seeing in them is training. You can tell a trained dog from one that has the desire by just watching them work. A highly trainable dog, in many cases, doesn't have to have the goods. That's why, as a breeder, I want to see the goods in a pup BEFORE a lot of exposer to the environment and any training. N/A test should be done as soon as possible for this reason.

[hicntry]

Excellent post Michael. Question. In a hunting dog that is working solely on inborn trait and drive, they are out of there if they don't have the "natural" prey drive. Where manwork is concerned, and birdwork where the dog isn't allowed to play with the bird, I can and do understand the need for possibly increasing drive levels. Am I reading this right? In manwork, after the break in time and the dog is used to it, he becomes the predator. In bird work, retrieving is not natural and the dog doesn't get the thrill of the fight or kill. he may also need drive enhancement.

[melanie]

hicntry said:

melanie said:

I'm sure other breeds work independently of their handler, but Airedales are highly coveted for their independence and ability to work away from the handler. Perhaps that is a core trait of the Airedale.

I think the suggestion that titles prove the dog is valid. Not mom or dad's titles, or pedigrees, but the actual dog. I think this is the only way to begin a hunting registry/working registry. Proof of the dog itself.


[glow=red,2,300]Mel[/glow]

Actually Mel, the only thing really proved by a dog having a war chest full of titles is that the parents are capable of throwing a great dog. What it actually says about that particular dog is that he is proof of what the parents can throw.....titled or not. That particular dog may not be able to reproduce anything close to what he is.. In many venues, it also may say more about the trainer than the dog. That is why I like "Basic Instinct " so much. Is that the one with Sharon Stone?? ;D ;D ;D

OTOH, those parents may have thrown ONLY that one great dog. As I was reading this last night, I got to thinking, "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" ;D



[glow=red,2,300]Mel[/glow]

[hicntry]

That's right Mel, so take the now titled dog and breed it back to his dam. Take a pup from that and breed it back to the sire, now take one of each pup from the resulting Parent sibling crosses and breed them. Piece of cake. 3 years to title the first dog:2years to breed the female to the sire:1 year to breed the 1/2 brother sister: 3 years to prove the achieved consistency. 9 years Mel ;D ;D

Or find an outcross for the titled dog and pray you don't loose it all in the dilution: or hope you get just one that is as good as the father. ;D

The method described first pretty much put both original parents out of the breeding age but you have compounded what they had for future generations.