Honest Workers with no Titles.

[Alisa]

I think I understand the feelings of the hunters or hunter breeders and why they are so indifferent to the perspective registry. Indeed, how do prove that your dog is a hunter if you care less about tests and competitions and just go out and hunt with your Airedale(s)?
Most of these people will say “forget you”, I know my dog is great and that is enough for me, and if you don’t believe me, go “forget yourself” or come with me and we will hunt together and I will show you who is the Pup! I am right?
Working Police/Army dogs have records.
Working SAR dogs have certificates.
Working Hunting dogs have trophies that are either eaten or hung on walls. No paper trail, no documentation, no medals, so – no registries.

[Robert]

Alisa,

There can be evidence in various forms. For example, there are hunt tests, and you can have photos, videos, and testimonials from reputable witnesses.

Robert

[morgan]

alisazap said:

I think I understand the feelings of the hunters or hunter breeders and why they are so indifferent to the perspective registry. Indeed, how do prove that your dog is a hunter if you care less about tests and competitions and just go out and hunt with your Airedale(s)?
Most of these people will say “forget you”, I know my dog is great and that is enough for me, and if you don’t believe me, go “forget yourself” or come with me and we will hunt together and I will show you who is the Pup! I am right?
Working Police/Army dogs have records.
Working SAR dogs have certificates.
Working Hunting dogs have trophies that are either eaten or hung on walls. No paper trail, no documentation, no medals, so – no registries.

I absolutely understand this, but the "show" breeders who claim they have fine hunting prospects say exactly this. What to do?

Dave in NYC

[hicntry]

Alisa hit the nail pretty much on the head. The hunt tests are all back east so that is out. would love to go but none of the events are suitable to what my personal dogs do. Dave is right also about the show breeders claiming their dogs can do it all and if reliability is based on a picture.....who knows for sure whose picture it is. I am sorry but I don't by what Melanie said about people gravitating to doing the honest thing when something is a stake that they want. After all, they said their dogs could do it all to start with. While many of you were upset at the exclusion for manwork dogs from the registry, I don't think being excluded from it would shake the leaves of any fur hunters tree. The irony is, we were included and don't really care one way or the other, many other that were excluded do care, some very much. It is strange how "The World Turns" isn't it. Here is a thought, the ones that want the titles and want the registry, are active in venues with heavy training. Fur dog have it or they don't so what if the registry was separate for the fur and all others included as one.....mandatory..... the name of the dogs trainer being one of the requirements since it weighs so heavily on the dogs success. Just a thought. On the trained registry I would expect to see the title called a tracking title and not a fur title for sure. ;D ;D

[hicntry]

The ability to hunt fur requires no training....it should be a separate class. All other venues require extensive training. As a fur hunter, I could say it is the purist art form based only on the dog .....but I won't.

[morgan]

Let's review a few threads here.
1) NAWATA was founded by folks who primarily did tracking and protection as a European definition of Working with an eye toward FCI recognition for the breed.
2) ATCA H/W committee (of which I'm now chair-so I'm vested) was formed by people who had upland and racoon experience.
3) This board and its "REAL" deal had a third, Full Cry orientation.

It seems natural that these two gropus would follow divergent paths. H/W abandoning any protection impetus in an effort to get Airedales eligible for AKC bird titles (any) on a certified pedigree. NAWATA pursuing FCI eligibility. Real Working Airedales hunting things that bite back.

Since that time AKC has stimied the bird titles route, places where you can run game of any kind with dogs decreases seasonally, and NAWATA membership has dwindled to a few-we need to find a strategy that doesn't resemble "Groundhogs Day" and recreate the past with every generation. It's fascinating to read that Field and Fancy had a well established Hunting Dog registry through the 20's because the AKC was a group of "bench show" people. Many of the efforts being discussed have predictable tipping points for success or failure.

Don and I have often discussed the "Eastern" bird hunters of Pa and Ohio dominating the H/W test program. For many years when Dorothy Miner lived in California there was a Hunt Test there with entries in the 20s. Since she's moved, that effort is defunct. People do what they can.

We need to sell more Airedales to hunters/trackers/policers to improve their profile. We need to encourage performance breeders of any stripe by referrals and communication. We certainly can nudge pet and show people to "do something" with their dogs, but this is a low percentage play.

Each of us who uses an Airedale in public to work, whatever the job, is an ambassador. Be proud, work hard, represent! I believe that with our numbers so low (relatively) that alternate clubs, alternate registries, and regulations are a distraction at this point in history.

hicntry said:

The ability to hunt fur requires no training....it should be a separate class. All other venues require extensive training. As a fur hunter, I could say it is the purist art form based only on the dog .....but I won't.

Don, I couldn't leave this. I know you're not suggesting that experience plays no role in a dog's success or survival at this game. Even redbones and blueticks get "trained up" in some fashion. The difference is that the "test" is meat in the truck and survivability of the team. I'm not worried that a big cock pheasant is going to take down my Airedale., I am concerned that a sloppy shooter could. You can rank the "amount" of training for a hunter least to most so:

tracking hounds
baying hounds (treers)
draw dogs
pointers
setters
upland flushers
retrievers
handling retrievers

That's why I argue for a "working certificate" which would be evaluating potential in many ways lots of our writers have endorsed. Of course an equal number think it's an awful idea. While I love to debate, as chair of this H/W committee I plan to follow Gilbert and Miner's example and "do" as much as I can, but here's a request:

Let's make our profiles public. Let's modify those profiles so that they say what we do with what dogs-what we belong to, how many we have, and a picture. Presto-automatic registry. No titles or fees required. Write what you want us to know. Write what you're proud of an care about. It will become a resource for people looking for dogs, people looking for direct input and advice, people looking for who's where doing what. It's a start and we have the format already.

[hicntry]

Dave, interesting that you made this post. I got out of bed to come and throw another iron in the fire. The numbers bother me and always have. No matter how good the intentions, the numbers do not give me any assurance of success. I am not a big fan of the ATCA which is obvious and the reasons for this ill feeling are known. But, in interest of the working dog and success, working with the ATCA would still be the best avenue in my mind. Those of you that have spent so many hours working with the ATCA have broken the ground with the show faction of the ATCA. I have honestly never gone through their web but I will tomorrow. Right now I will ask you, Dale and others connected with the ATCA, if, in your opinions, it would be possible to have a suitable working registry with the ATCA. A joint effort would be beneficial to both show and working dogs because the numbers, instead of being split, will grow. Eventually with a good program, the AKC may have to listen. The one thing that does bother me is the very one sided representation afforded the H/W side of the organization with one board member who's interest lies with the working dog. In the interest of the working dogs, I would say there has to be a little more representation on the working side for anything to work. Any ideas from any officers of the ATCA?

[morgan]

hicntry said:

Eventually with a good program, the AKC may have to listen. The one thing that does bother me is the very one sided representation afforded the H/W side of the organization with one board member who's interest lies with the working dog. In the interest of the working dogs, I would say there has to be a little more representation on the working side for anything to work. Any ideas from any officers of the ATCA?

We don't so much need a new registry, because that requires "official certification" of some sort: Ours, yours, mine, UKC, AKC, somebodies.

We need to get the information and message our to the public. Testify, advocate, encourage. As to the politics, that's the big muddy. I didn't run for the board again.

Dave

[hicntry]

" As to the politics, that's the big muddy. I didn't run for the board again."

And there you have it. What representation will the working dog have once Dale gives up the ghost. I am curious, what is keeping the H/W going right now. Are there people I am not familiar with that will carry on with the same enthusiasm?

[hicntry]

Well, Dave's idea seems to be the logical first step. I will have Kyle put up a " Working Registry" with the express intent of only posting critical info which we will decide. The forum will be members only but anyone can read it. The forum will not be a place to hold a debate, we have the general forum for that. What the heck, it is a place to start.

[Wolfer]

It'll Just Take a Second to Add another forum section I Just need the particulars Don.Let me Know and Ill get it started

[maugh]

I think Dave's idea is brilliant. And it leaves the small core groups such as H/W and NAWATA free to continue pursuing their activities just as they have done in the past - holding their respective workshops and trials as they should be doing.

Thanks Dave for the Deus ex Machina!

Maugh

[hicntry]

I think it is a great idea myself Maugh. Hopefully once we get our feet wet and iron out the problems, the H/W and possibly the NAWATA(if it is around) will figure in some way as a proving ground. Keeping the registry informal may prove a benefit. I personally don't care for the idea of a registry being club oriented at this point in time. The complications are insurmountable at this point, I believe. I don't know how strict NAWATA was but from what you said, being FCI oriented etc. it was pretty regulated. I am not sure what hands would be tied by resurrecting the org. I think doing it this way will also give us an idea on how serious people are.

[maugh]

Don you are absolutely right. NAWATA is tied by the guidelines of AWDF which is tied by FCI. In order for Airedales to participate in all-breed national level Schutzhund trials, we need to maintain that connection. People such as Stew Tardiff, the Govedniks and myself have put in a lot of money and time to make that happen.
As Dave Morgan says, there is true diversity among our Airedales and their owners, and there should be no problem with having the various organizations remain separate which promote these things. While keeping NAWATA going, I am also very active in training for H/W bird events and am fully supportive of Dave. Madonna loves bird work and she is a hoot.

But there are also a lot of people out there who simply work with their dogs, and they should also be recognized. When I was in Search and Rescue I really appreciated this problem. I spent hours and even days and weeks working with my dogs and it was frustrating that nobody knew or cared.

Maugh