Training "Alternate" Breeds

[Ryan]

With regard to Schutzhund and training/competing using alternative breeds to the GSD.

This could end up being a sensitive topic, so if anyone wants to take this to private messages or personal email, please feel free.

I keep hearing that you cant train Airedales (or any alternate breeds) like you can the GSD. Things that work for a GSD won't work for an Airedale (or other alternate breed). Being a newbie, I am concerned I won't be able to spot a potential bad idea when one is suggested.

Since this topic is HUGE,and can easily spill into personal training philosophies and fundamentals, I guess that I'll start with some basic questions:

- what types of training methods have you seen fail miserably on an Alternate breed, such as the Airedale?

- conversely, what have you seen that works really well that GSD trainers don't use, because they don't need to use.

[Ryan]

Curt -

Can you be specific with exactly what kind of pressure? scinching up a prong collar tight? hard leash corrections using a prong? - when you say "shut down" you mean that he has no interest in play when the "break" comes - just sulks or cowers when you say "break"?

I keep hearing, "if you give a hard correction, you have to come back with equally hard play..." that is tuff to do if the dog shuts down and refuses the 'reward" of play....

[mijotheterror]

Great question Ryan and I with Curt, I hope people with experience reply. I have very limited experience, we just started Mijo in schutzhund a few months ago.

I can tell you last week Mijo wouldn't come when we called him in obedience training. The trainer tried an "E" collar on him at a very low voltage and he complete shut down. After the jolt, he sat down and wouldn't do anything for over 20 minutes. He sat there like a mule and wouldn't budge. We tried treats, I walked away where he couldn't see me and came back a few feet from him and called him, etc. He just wouldn't BUDGE till he was ready. The trainer said she never saw a dog completely shut down like that before for so long. When he finally decided to move he worked half heartedly for about 5 minutes and then I put him in the car. He stayed in the car for a little over an hour and then it was his turn to work with the helper. As the helper said, he was "on in protection." Mijo can't wait to get out in the filed and work with the helper. We haven't used any negative correction on him for protection and I am sure interested to know what worked for other people.

[melanie]

Ryan I really appreciate these threads and want to say thanks for asking the questions. I don't know the answers either, also a newbie, so I hope the responses are public!

I learn alot on threads like this!

Thanks!



[glow=red,2,300]Mel[/glow]

[Alisa]

I know what does not work - force and negative reinforcement. I know, you will say it is not advised for any breed training, but here's a tiny example:
GSD being trained to sit - From standing position - slight pull on the leash back and up, simultaneous gentle down-push on the rear - and voila - the dog is in a sit.
Ever tried that with an Airedale? Slight pull on the leash back and up - your Airedale is backing up full speed while turning his butt clockwise in multiple circles; gentle down-push on the rear your Airedale is now circling in an opposite direction while still backing up but now in a half-crouched position - and voila - your dog just freed himself of the collar and is now full speed on the way to free-play.

[Ryan]

Heh - yup, I'm feeling my way through this mine field.

Having only half an Airedale and the other half Dobe I'm sure my training techniques will be tested thoughly.

One thing I learned to teach the sitz that seems to work - instead of pushing on the rear, grab some fur near the tail and pull up quickly releasing as the butt goes down - since dogs push againts pressure, conversly they move away from pulling (like pulling on the leash) - seemed to work for a faster sit as it remembers that if it doesnt go fast enough some fur will get pulled.

[Alisa]

YEAH, BABY! Reverse Psychology!!!

Best Airedale Training Mantra: TRICK AND TREAT

[ed]

My view of this subject is based on my own experience. First i have trained only one Airedale. I have both worked with and observed several other airedales in protection. Over more years than i like to recount I have trained some conventional and an orphan breed or two.

Most importantly I think in working dogs there is more difference of individual dogs within a breed than between breeds.

Second exaggerating or focusing on breed differences often does not help you train your dog but creates a basis for excuse so often training errors or character problems become those of the breed not the dog ..

My Airedale is and was easy to train.Much of the "Airehead" stuff I heard before starting with him proved to be nonsense.

Are there breed differences sure. the GSD's I have encountered particularly Czech are sharper and can be handler aggressive.Haven't really seen this in terriers. Attention span does not seem to be the terriers forte. Quick learning is, while desire to please seems to vary significantly with individuals.

It is the area of corrections I see the greatest difference. Most of the herding dogs i have worked with to a greater or lesser extent take it as a matter of course. To my dog it can be a betrayal, or something that p***es him off and gets his mind off what we are trying to do. When it works it is a light a reminder and not the heavy dominant stuff that used to be de rigeur on the training field.

This may make me unpopular but most of the Airedales I have seen are soft dogs and do not belong in protections sports. . In contrast there a few including an Ohio born rescue dog that i worked with that are tough as nails and know no back up. Thjs particular dog was so impressive i searched out and co owned a half sister. She at 10 months rolled and dominated a 5 year old seasoned bitch and put the fear of G*d in an adult show male being kept on the property as a stud.

BTW the brother of this dog now lives in Northern La and is kept soley as a property protector and away fron the hunting dogs used by the owner. The owner a dog man who has hunted curs and hounds believes there is hunt in this dog but there would be more damage to his other dogs than treed game if he used the the Dale in his pack.
When I worked with this dog he was trainable,and woudl do anythng for food. Praise meant little and corrections were something youwanted to do with a light touch,

In summary make sure you have the right Dale, and customize your training to your dog and ignore myths and tales about the breed.

[Alisa]

Hey, Guys,
You think I got miself a proper Dale, seeing as she is 4mo old here.

Click to see the video of Zeena- the Vicious Little Bitch:

[jsf13]

LOL. love that little hip check.

[hicntry]

I am not a trainer but, Ed has described an airedale to a tee. I have found that if I am working a dog and it is not into it, I am better off putting the dog up rather than getting heavy handed with it. After a few times of being put up, they are much more receptive to the work out.....on their own.
I want to mention here that picking dogs is a problem and maybe Ed can add something here also. Some dogs will look mediocre by any standards.....until they are under pressure. That is where they shine. Much like people, they only work well under pressure. So, how do you tell this type of dog with conventional tests?

[hicntry]

A word of advice here. Some dogs don't take to a shock collar well. I have seen both kinds and you just have to judge how they are reacting to it. Normally, I use a check cord and reel them, like it or not. That way they know why they are getting shocked and the safest place to be is....by your side. Next time use a check cord until he gets the idea he has to come when told. Mild shock and reel him in with a lot of praise. Don't use it and expect him to be free ranging and to know what he is supposed to do because he has gotten by with not coming up to now with no shock. The bottom line...if you are going to use the shock collar.....he has to know what he is supposed to do.....or don't use it.

[ed]

"I want to mention here that picking dogs is a problem"

Don I have done a lot of puppy testing and its still a crap shoot. The parents will give you some idea and your interacting with the litter some more. Obviously shy is for what I want not a good thing.
Usually take home what my wife describes as the most obnoxious of the bunch. i know you put some store in how they interact with each other and that may be because you observe them over time. I am usually have to make the decision with a snap shot impression. Others have had good luck letting the breeder choose for them.

Chosing grown dogs is much easier but then they have there own issues. Its an old story that super expensive working or sport dogs are impoted and with the new owner in a few months to a year no longer show why the big money was spent.

[doitallairedales]

I'm late to this thread but let me add, in my opinion, e-collars have no place in obedience work except perhaps with an extremely hard dog. The only people who use them as a regular tool don't care a thing about the dog, they are just looking for the shortcut.

Again, in my opinion, e-collars are only for deer-running and major unacceptable behaviors. Even if used with a dog-fighter, it can backfire pretty quickly.

When you are new to an activity and relying on "experts", you should still listen to your gut.

If your dog is listless in obedience, crate him and ignore him for a bit. Listless again, put him up and don't give him his "reward" of doing helper work. Elevate the reward/play time.

The main advantage herding breeds have is the heritage/experience of having numerous intense commands given in a short amount of time. Sheepdogs may be given hundreds of commands in a 10-min exercise. Other breeds will shut down after the first dozen. That said, alot of border collies are super-sensitive and will shut down if the handler is too harsh.

I guess my point is this: trust your helper but trust your gut more.

TC
Schutzhund & SAR handler

[alex]

doitallairedales

Completely disagree with you about your statements regarding e-collar use. I guess you are right - its only your opinion!
There are people (more and more every day) in todays protection world (Belgian Ring, Schutzhund, etc) that use ONLY e-collar for ALL the training.
Here is an interview with one of them - www.finographics.com/schutzhund/interviews/bartbellon.html. Bart is a pro when it comes to e-collar, with years and years of experience.
A few more examples? How about Dobbs, Dana Miller, etc... And believe me - they are all DO CARE ABOUT THE DOG!

Agree with you though about crating and isolation if the dog is listless, not eager to work, not paying attention, etc.

As a trainer you have to use a variety of available tools of modern trainers and of course never forget about the past! There is no set of rules that are the same for every trainer. You have to look at a particular dog, and you have to trust your gut, but it never hurts to listen to the experts...IMHO, of course.

Respectfully,
Alex.