Bird Dog Questions

[horribilis]

I have been reading several bird dog training books. All of them instruct one to get a pup from parents who are proven bird dogs. Since it is obviously difficult to find an Airedale breeder that consistently uses their Dales for bird dog work, what is the likely success of taking a pup from someone who breeds Airedales for show and agilty competitions, and turning that pup into a reliable bird dog?

Next is the choice of training to point or to flush. I think I am leaning toward the point, so what sort of success have folks had with training a Dale to be a reliable pointer?

I have seen Franky's posts on his Dale pup pointing, as an anecdotal storyline, but what success have others had? Is a pointing Dale just too much to ask for and should I settle on a flusher?

By way of further information, the other dog that I am considering is the Wirehaired Pointing Griffon. I realize that these breeds have different personalities, but they both have things about them that I like.

[shawnboryca]

If you are unsure of getting an airedale and you were interested in other breeds I would suggest the german wirehaired pointer, the spinone pointer, or if you really want a rare breed and a dog that excels in NAVHDA look at the Wirehaired Vizlas; They are very pretty dogs as well.

[phil]

Good thought Shawn! Chances are that if a person is some impressed with a pointing style then one should be involved with a breed that at least has been bred to exhibit some pointing stlye.
For those that think the Dale should also be a pointing breed,along with their many other abilities, there will be much disappointment when tested with breeds that point naturally.
Much time over the last 25 years has been expended in the quest to gain acceptance in the Upland and Retriever test venues,AKC and UKC. I have to chuckle,knowing that if either of those organizations actual understood how few dogs will ever be entered in a licensed event, and for that matter actually title, they, the AKC or UKC would have never granted acceptance.
The last thing this breed needs is another test venue.
Horribilis you might be better served with a GWP or WHPG, rather than trying to jam a square peg into a round hole

Hal

[markbaldassarre]

There are natural pointers w/i the flushing breeds but nowhere near the amount as the with natural pointers. Flushers can be trained to point, style is the only variable.

If I needed a pointer, I'd rather TRAIN a Dale or Chessie to point, rather than being stuck w/ a one dimensional natural pointer. "Versatile" is the last word I'd use to describe the so called, "versatile breeds"!

[horribilis]

While I appreciate the suggestion of other breeds, I have conducted 6 months of research and have narrowed my search down to the the Dale and the Griff.

I suppose that my inquiry here is targeted more for those folks who have trained their Dales for bird dog work. Particularly those that got their pups from parents that were not bird dogs themselves.

On the next point, I realize that most Dales put into bird work are flushers, but I also know that there have been a few that have learned to point, so I am hoping to get input from those folks.

With the Dale's intelligence, it seems that a point could be learned.

Anyway - let me hear your "Airedale as a bird dog" experiences.

Thanks all.

[ed]

I've been hunting both this Griffin and my Airedale for the last five years . They hunt together effectively.What specifically do you want to know?

[phil]

If you read about different pointing breeds,whether it be in thier respected Hunting stlye document or breed standard,I do not believe you find any that will say you have to train this breed or that breed "to point". Just about all of the pointing breeds will espouse "natural" pointing behavior. Where the training comes in is teaching the dog to hold point until set of circumstances comes in to play..i.e. the flush of the bird or the opportunity to move and relocate by pointing a bird that has moved off the nest. Whether that relocation is 5 ft or 500ft.
Another aspect of pointing breeds that breeders of such dogs are fairly adamant about, is the subject of "natural backing", i.e. another dog that is already on point. This behavior is accomplish by the dog using his eyes and seeing another dog on point. once doing so stops immediately and does not interfer with the dog that found the bird scent in the first place. All be it not important to the hunter companion dog owner, because he may never run with another dog. It is still a procedure in most test venues. And for many it is the definitonal procedure for identifing a pointing breed.
From my experience with the Airedale, 8yrs, and after assisting in the training & titleing three Dales in ATCA Spaniel Hunt tests, HWA, and UKC. I realize that their flushing style varies greatly, from soft to bold. But these ranges are also present if we were talking about Spaniel breeds in the upland or Retriever breeds that are being conditioned for upland work..
Concerning Navhda, over the last 2 yrs alone,five of my charges have qualified at the natural abilty level 2 Large Munsterlander's 2 GSP's and 1 Pudelponter. Now one of the Dales that work with has a very hesitant flushing stlye,, I would never consider Navhda as a venue to test her in, she is a flushing dog and a retriever. she would never honor another dog on point. And trying to train her do so could cause quite some damage in her over all performance in the field.
Get the dog that's right for your style and perception of a day afield. If pointing is that important, and it is to a lot of folks, get a pointing breed.
Ron Swisher should share some of his thoughts on this subject. He has own at least one fine Dale, his Forge MVH (HWA) dog. However he has recently acquired a pointing dog. I'm sure he could offer some insights into this thread.

Hal

[horribilis]

Wow Ed - great photo. So what made you choose the Dale and the Griff - what were the things that attracted you to the two breeds?

How do you have them working together? The griff points, then the Dale flushes when you direct it to?

Did you get your Dale from hunting parents or did you just carefully select a pup from companion/conformation/agility parents?

Are there things that are peculiar to training a Dale versus a Griff (separate and apart from one pointing and the other flushing)?

On that note...I am assuming that you have your Dale flushing...is that the case?

[ed]

horribilis the WPG is a bird finding machine that belongs to one of my good friends and hunting partners. If you are mainly interested in bird hunting and are looking for a pointer that works in close this is a great breed.
They are not big running dogs like English pointers or setters that can range out 500 to a 1000 yards. If you are working hundreds of acres of flat Nebraska farmland then the "Boot polisher" close in WPG probably is not your best bet. This particular WPG is smart feisty and no slouch at protecting the house. She is also a right fine water dog if thats where the bird fell.

Now my Airedale is not from "Bird Lines" and I don't think there is such a line .
Non of his antecedants were bird hunters.
They were police dogs and working (VPG or Schutzhund lines) fairly tightly bred on both sides.
My experience with this dog and several others is that they will do most anything you ask. If you are going to chase small birds three months of the year they will do that.You want them to fight a man kill a coon,do obedience exercises catch hogs they are up for that. Though i dearly love that talented WPG this stuff is above her pay grade.
And if you want to do more they are up for it.
They are really Much More than a feathered game dog.
Ramble through this board and you will get a sense of the Airedale.
Oh yeah my dog flushes not points.

[horribilis]

Ed - What training have you done with your Dale? Did you just do simple conditioning and retrieving play or did you get more formal with whistle signals, hand commands, forced retrieve, etc...? Have you done any hunt tests? What is your Dales flush like and how close does it work for upland? What about in the water - how is s/he? How does your Dale work solo in terms of finding birds?

Hal - When a non-pointing breed does show some sort of point when they first scent game, what is that called? I have seen a few terms thrown around "Hard flush "soft flush" etc... Does that sort of behavior detract from spaniel hunt tests? Can a Dale that does this quasi-point then be commanded to flush? This sort of seems like an ideal situation just for the companion hunter. Thoughts?

A quick update - I got a chance to hunt behind a GSP this weekend working pheasants. The GSP would find and point, then we had a lab that would go in and flush, then retrieve. The system worked out well. It was great fun!!
It was a shame that the lab wasn't able to find any birds on her own.

It would be good for me to get some experience behind a good flusher to see how they work independently.

[phil]

Horri..
Regardless of breed when a dog stops in the prescense of scent it would be called a point. In non-pointing breeds it could also be refered to as accidental behavior. If it is a trained responsed then it would be a conditioned behavior. Concerning the Dales that point and remember what Ed, refered to about there are no specific bird dog blood lines in the breed,they are a breed that can handle many different situations. As many of the Dale folks say'they are bred for every thing. Teaching a Dale point is not a big deal as far as the companion dog hunter goes,however there are some areas that require a wee bit of force. And usually when the new dog owner starts using force they do so completely in the dark.
In the early days of the pointing Lab development many a good dog was destroyed because of the lack of thoughtfulness and planning. It is interesting to me that the pointing Lab came into vogue with the advent of the E-collar. Though maybe just before that time when the .22
loaded with 10shot was still being use on a widespread basis in the retriever circles.

In the Spaniel test format the quality of the flush is but 1 of 5 areas that a flushing dog is judged. I'm assuming that when you ask about a Dale with a quasi point that you are asking about you and the dog out on a hunt, of course you command the dog to flush. If however it is in a a Spaniel test that the Dales will soon be elgilble for, NO you can not command a dog to flush after pointing. It would be against the standards of the flushing dog world. Canine standards are something that develop over a long period of time, and usually it is the new that folks that think they have a better take on things.. Just ask my Postman he thinks that we in this country should all drive on the left. it would make it a lot simpler for him to drive on his route. I digress..

As companion dog hunter do you value the point as a thing of beauty or as a perceived way of bagging more birds? Usually with pointing dogs the more specialized the breed the less all round abilities they will have. i.e. retrieving,water work and so on. Over the years the pointing dogs I have own had one job and one job only, find birds and hold by pointing, they were conditioned to specialists much like a wide reciever or quarterback, the grunt work of retrieeving was going to be done by either my Spaniels or Labs. And that was the way I trained for it. That is not to say that me Spaniels never got the chance to do it all. I would run me Setter and spaniels together about once or maybe twice a week. It just depended on the clients that was guiding for and what kind of an outing we were trying to put on. These were not not young inexperience dogs. These dogs were very well trained, trial and titled, until they were retired as guide dogs.
Griffens or Dales, Dale or Griffen! you probable have a fine dog either way!

[horribilis]

Hal - I intend to get at least a JH and maybe a SH in hunt tests on which ever pup I get. It seems like the best bet to do so with a Dale then is to discourage the point and to reinforce the flush. Is that right? My goal is definitely to have an all around dog: water retrieving, upland bird finding (be it as a pointer or a flusher), and an upland retriever.

In your estimation, how would a Dale do at finding birds as the only dog on the hunt?

[phil]

Horri,
If there are birds about the Dale that is conditioned to work the beat, in other words hunt to the guns they will do just fine.
Are far as testing is concern,one of the main reasons that Doug Lundgren and Tom Meyer of the AKC made the decision to include the Airedale in Spaniel testing was because of Madonna and Gangster's efficient run stlye,responsiveness to whistle and bird finding ability that produced birds within gun range. And of course their faultless retrieving skills.
Though the breed does not come from a long line of bird dog breedings, through proper enviromental development and thoughtful training,especially in proper retrieving habits this breed breed can play with the Spaniels or the Retrievers.
As far as setting a testing goal,raise your sights. Train for the Master,let the individual dog tell you if he has it or not.
One of the areas of training that I really have some fun with all my dogs is set up exercises that are more complex than what they will actually be confronted with in the hunt or at a test. This process of complexity begins after proper intro to gunfire and a reliable delivery of birds or bumpers to Hand. Usually during the steadiness to wing and shot process.
By doing this I proof my basic training and recieve insights as to the talent level of the dog that I am working with. It really is great fun to get inside the canine mind..
By the way what part of the country do you live? Chances are I know some one in your local that could assist you in learning more about Spaniel testing.

Hal

[phil]

Horri,
If there are birds about the Dale that is conditioned to work the beat, in other words hunt to the guns they will do just fine.
Are far as testing is concern,one of the main reasons that Doug Lundgren and Tom Meyer of the AKC made the decision to include the Airedale in Spaniel testing was because of Madonna and Gangster's efficient run stlye,responsiveness to whistle and bird finding ability that produced birds within gun range. And of course their faultless retrieving skills.
Though the breed does not come from a long line of bird dog breedings, through proper enviromental development and thoughtful training,especially in proper retrieving habits this breed breed can play with the Spaniels or the Retrievers.
As far as setting a testing goal,raise your sights. Train for the Master,let the individual dog tell you if he has it or not.
One of the areas of training that I really have some fun with all my dogs is set up exercises that are more complex than what they will actually be confronted with in the hunt or at a test. This process of complexity begins after proper intro to gunfire and a reliable delivery of birds or bumpers to Hand. Usually during the steadiness to wing and shot process.
By doing this I proof my basic training and recieve insights as to the talent level of the dog that I am working with. It really is great fun to get inside the canine mind..
By the way what part of the country do you live? Chances are I know some one in your local that could assist you in learning more about Spaniel testing.

Hal

[horribilis]

I am in Denver, CO. I checked out the AKC Event calendar for Spanieal hunt tests this year so I could go watch. I also looked up UKC Hunting Retriever calendar as well. In CO, there is a UKC coming up in early March and another in mid-May. I did not see any AKC spaniel tests coming up in CO though.