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Post by hicntry on Nov 5, 2009 12:18:00 GMT -5
Southern, stay out of the chit chat and do your posting on the blacks and what transpired.
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Post by thistlesdale on Nov 5, 2009 13:12:13 GMT -5
the otterhound, comes in an all black phase....so it may be possible. www.otterhoundclub.co.uk/index_files/Short_History_PDF.pdf In addition to the otterhound factor, the jambalaya of working terriers used to found airedale were any color. Slate, white, wheaten, even brindle. From what I've gathered, the modern "show airedale type" wasn't fixed until after WWI. Solid black/grizzle & solid red/grizzle offspring, produced by "correct" black/tan/grizzle parents were not at all uncommon until well into the 20th century. "like a horse, no good airedale is a bad color" was the saying in those days... except of course, in the showring... A quick search of old fur, fish, & game, trapper & trader (etc etc etc) on google books reveals that mail order airedales were not only shipped west in bulk, but also crossbred/linebred with all manner of hunting dogs. Many imported English bench champions in those days apparently had heart, but their Welsh-like small stature didn't suit big game needs. Hence, the legendary airedales of Africa were exported from Mississippi, rather than Yorkshire. The rule of thumb for breeding working airedales in those days (pre WW1) was a fairly simple formula, commonly attributed to the late great robert bakewell, known as "in and in breeding": sire x F1daughter x F2son x F1mother X F3daughter X sire = "8/8 purebred" these are, as near as I can tell, the origins of the "large type hunting airedale" featured on the covers of all those old hunting magazines no doubt modern showfolk shudder @ the problems such close breeding would create in their own kennels; but only because they've been "assortative mating" CH X CH for so many generations now, their stock may as well all be full siblings getting back to the "non standard" hunting type airedale, he is hands down THE most remarkable dog I've ever encountered quite unlike anything you'll ever find at a dogshow I hope they'll still exist for the next generation to enjoy
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Post by doylecpd on Nov 5, 2009 14:59:41 GMT -5
TD...I was wondering if you have found any other blacks that pop up between WWI and the 1970s. I don't doubt that there were Blacks and other variations in color when the Airedale first was created. I believe the question is whether or not the gene would still pop up. The largest breeder of Airedales in the U.S., Lingo would have had definitely come across it. I'll have to review the book to see whether he did or not. If he did not, I don't think there is much of a chance the gene would have continued.
I read your websites, Southern, and you seem like a genuine person who cares for the breed. I appreciate that. My only worry with Black airedales is people breeding an airedale to be black and not for general purpose. I don't know you or your kennel well enough to make a judgement on it, but it is a concern.
It seems as if you've been through a lot and I would not wish that upon anybody. I do think you tend to bring a lot of it upon yourself but that could just be years of dealing with crap. If it were me, I would go and get a new DNA test, prove it is a purebred Airedale and then the next person to lay false claims, I'd have my lawyer contact them and depending on the level of accustations, sue the living crap out of them. I'm not about lawsuits but I do think that one needs to proect themselves especially from defamation of character.
Just some thoughts. I do look forward to reading the rest of your posts and I'm not in any hurry so go at it on your own timeline (as long as its not months ;D)
Chad
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Post by southern on Nov 5, 2009 15:47:12 GMT -5
TD...I was wondering if you have found any other blacks that pop up between WWI and the 1970s. I don't doubt that there were Blacks and other variations in color when the Airedale first was created. I believe the question is whether or not the gene would still pop up. The largest breeder of Airedales in the U.S., Lingo would have had definitely come across it. I'll have to review the book to see whether he did or not. If he did not, I don't think there is much of a chance the gene would have continued. I read your websites, Southern, and you seem like a genuine person who cares for the breed. I appreciate that. My only worry with Black airedales is people breeding an airedale to be black and not for general purpose. I don't know you or your kennel well enough to make a judgement on it, but it is a concern. It seems as if you've been through a lot and I would not wish that upon anybody. I do think you tend to bring a lot of it upon yourself but that could just be years of dealing with crap. If it were me, I would go and get a new DNA test, prove it is a purebred Airedale and then the next person to lay false claims, I'd have my lawyer contact them and depending on the level of accustations, sue the living crap out of them. I'm not about lawsuits but I do think that one needs to proect themselves especially from defamation of character. Just some thoughts. I do look forward to reading the rest of your posts and I'm not in any hurry so go at it on your own timeline (as long as its not months ;D) Chad ok, this one I will answer. I have had 26 yrs of eating the crap, because only a few would believe back then. There are 15 breeders of the Black ADT's out there, and NONE of them has deserted me on this. Tina is long past, but the dna done back then was on parantage not if she was an ADT, NOT the dna standard of today. My blacks are used for hunting, companion, security,etc as any B&T can do. I personally have not bred a black in 4 1/2 yrs, but I have them. As far as the courts go, I am tired of them. I spent 3 yrs of my life in and out of Federal Court on this case, but I can damn sure say, I am tired of being called a liar and a confused little breeder. I happen to own one of the largest kennels here in the US. I grew up in a Great Dane kennel. I know genetics. That is the reason for the article and to try and enlighten the reader of the parent club they so cherish deeply. Keep reading, it only gets better..... I appreciate your comment.. S
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Post by southern on Nov 5, 2009 15:52:10 GMT -5
Lingo would have had definitely come across it. I'll have to review the book to see whether he did or not. If he did not, I don't think there is much of a chance the gene would have continued.
Anyone well versed in genetics would know, all genetic malnormaties, (black coat) will come back around with in ten generations.
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Post by thistlesdale on Nov 5, 2009 17:03:53 GMT -5
TD...I was wondering if you have found any other blacks that pop up between WWI and the 1970s. it's said that one AKC registered sold black AT (Mountainview's doubledown blackjack, I believe) was not only deployed for overseas service in WWII, but that she also whelped/weaned a litter of solid black pups shortly after entering the K9 corps As of yet I haven't been able to verify that, but I think it's pretty safe to assume folks had more important things to worry about at the time, so I don't find the lack of documentation terribly "mysterious." More importantly however I think we need to put the breed, as it was in the early part of the 20th century, fully into context. Bear in mind that the AKC wasn't even incorporated until 1908. The world of purebred dogs was a VERY different place 100 yrs ago. At that time, Airedale terrier was far & away the most popular breed in the world ( this was before strongheart & rin-tin-tin made made their screen debuts). Market demand/prices for purebred/pedigreed airedale pups were sky high at the time, & "correct" black/tan/grizzle airedale pups are nearly solid black for the first few months of their lives. Any young dark pup could be passed off as "purebred airedale" to unsuspecting buyers back in those days, & many people got scammed into paying premium purebred airedale prices for puppies that never grew up to be airedales at all. Hence showbreeders were very quick to cull any pup whose markings deviated from the show norm. Every solid black whelp was a big black mark against it's breeder, so they quietly killed them, & never spoke of them again. solid black & solid red airedales weren't considered rare until they became rare on a side note, you can draw an awful lot of very solid inferences about true airedale history by studying the histories of other terrier breeds, in the oldest books on google books
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Post by southern on Nov 5, 2009 17:14:13 GMT -5
Hence showbreeders were very quick to cull any pup whose markings deviated from the show norm. Every solid black whelp was a big black mark against it's breeder, so they quietly killed them, & never spoke of them again.
The funny thing is, that that practice is going on today
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mb
Hunter/worker
Posts: 91
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Post by mb on Nov 5, 2009 17:50:25 GMT -5
It's "wit", only one t.
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Post by hicntry on Nov 5, 2009 18:34:41 GMT -5
The show standard was adopted in 1902. The ATCA, unfortunately is the keeper of the airedale. A working breed managed by the show world....and you would expect "what" to come out of this? The ATCA can be likened to many of the slight of hand artists playing the shell game. They continually point out the tight coats in the old pictures.....never seems to occur to anyone with this slight of hand, that the long profuse coats are a product of the show world. Another slight of hand perpetrated by the show world(hobby breeders) is that inbreeding is taboo. Why after centuies of breeding dogs this way? Because the hobby show breeders indisciminately used back breeding solely based on looks and screwed everything up....only to blame it on the backyard breeders. Hobbie breeders are backyard breeders. Why does everyone have so much trouble believing that there were some slight of hands concerning the blacks?
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Post by Undercover Cowboy on Nov 5, 2009 19:27:00 GMT -5
[ Yep so it has to be WoodticK Hey Southern wasn't that a preacher or Reverend that you wanted me to try and collect money from in Deming??
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Post by charlie on Nov 5, 2009 19:45:55 GMT -5
Excellent! You guys have already started on the question I had about prior publication of any information about a black Airedale. You hit on the one big question I had as to whether Walter Lingo ever mentioned a black Airedale. I have never seen any mention of it in any publication that he produced that I have been able to access. Lingo was the ultimate promoter and I would suspect that if he found any kind of gimmick to sell an Airedale or a special black Airedale he would of promoted the hell out of it. I've seen old black and white pictures of military dogs and what appeared to be black terriers but the picture never said that they were black Airedales. Now that the search is on maybe someone can find some historical evidence of a black Airedale.
Don......... Woodtick. Your insult is not lost on me. At least not the one you made as to what a woodtick is in reference to myself from your perspective. Accepted and acknowledged. For your information though I should tell you that you have attributed an intent not originally meant by Southern. Although I'm sure she would love to take credit for it. The original reference to woodtic (no *******K) by Southern was due to her belief that I was a carpenter. Oh yea ;D
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Post by hicntry on Nov 5, 2009 21:04:35 GMT -5
No insult intended Charlie. ;D Just a feeble attempt to explain what a woodtick is. Ticks are also in the same family as spiders....arachnids. I don't see how you associate your working with wood as making it a tic instead of a tick. ;D
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Post by jespinoza on Nov 5, 2009 22:48:40 GMT -5
Great info guys. I hope everyone keeps sharing this knowledge. and like I said before, Hang in there Southern.
John
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mb
Hunter/worker
Posts: 91
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Post by mb on Nov 6, 2009 8:24:38 GMT -5
One interesting point in the original article is that the odds of a breeder producing a solid black are VERY small. Don said he has bred approximately 1500 pups and has never seen one. So, what are the odds of a breeder producing both blacks AND reds... I just can't see that occuring naturally... sorry
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Post by ronstout on Nov 6, 2009 9:03:21 GMT -5
mb...red is a dilute factor of black. Folks should study genetics before they become 'experts'.
ESQ
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