Alisa
Hunter/worker
Posts: 156
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Post by Alisa on Jul 5, 2006 15:59:33 GMT -5
Last instructions from the trainers were to keep Zeena and Zander separated to avoid loosing their "human focus". Seems to work for now, however in the short time that they got together last night Zeena managed to organize and execute a joint forces ambush of the kitchen trash can. Zander would have never attempted anything like that on his own - he is a fairly obedient dog for most part and just wouldn't have thought of searching for an independent food source until Zeena came around. Zeena needed him for the height (she is still a little midget) so with proper instructions, encouragements and careful step-by-step supervision, the deed was accomplished successfully. This morning both woke up with runs mostly due to the ingested old watermelon skins. never a dull moment.
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Post by hicntry on Jul 5, 2006 22:45:32 GMT -5
Sounds like your gonna have your hands full Alisa.
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Alisa
Hunter/worker
Posts: 156
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Post by Alisa on Jul 6, 2006 10:37:55 GMT -5
No one better than Curt can keep you intrigued! Ha-Ha - something about Yesterday that won't be told until Tomorrow!
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Post by hicntry on Jul 7, 2006 2:46:09 GMT -5
Alisa, my guess is Curt is finding out that a lot of training runs the same gamut as kissyfacing and conditioning newborn pups. KIssyfacing isn't necessary with solid confident pups, it only benefits the less confident. Many training methods are designed to avoid the pitfalls encountered in training dogs that are in over their head. Many methods of training, isolating the dog is one of them in my mind, isn't really necessary with solid working material. If the dog really enjoys what you are doing with him, you will have his attention. He will be looking forward to the next move. This is just my own observation ....but I am not a trainer and I am sure I will get corrected on this.
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Post by morgan on Jul 12, 2006 12:28:38 GMT -5
Alisa, my guess is Curt is finding out that a lot of training runs the same gamut as kissyfacing and conditioning newborn pups. <<KIssyfacing isn't necessary with solid confident pups, it only benefits the less confident. >> Don, you expected some flack on this, so I'll shoot some. Don, sometimes you just don't make logical sense!!! If I'm a teacher and discove a strategy that allows kids who can't read a word to figure it out, should I only apply that strategy after a kid has failed. Good procedures should benefit everybody. A confident dog will really benefit from a procedure that builds confidence-he'll get better.
<<Many training methods are designed to avoid the pitfalls encountered in training dogs that are in over their head. Many methods of training, isolating the dog is one of them in my mind, isn't really necessary with solid working material. If the dog really enjoys what you are doing with him, you will have his attention. He will be looking forward to the next move.>> Or avoiding it, or putting up with it, or making his own choices. Just because a method isn't needed, doesn't mean it won't help. I have no opinoin on isolation, and think Curt got some good information. However you work it out, it's about the relationship whith the dog for anything you do together. My own dogs have been plenty screwed up by my mistakes, and while you absolutely need a good dog, lots of people blame the animal for their ineffectiveness. If I had a better horse, I might be the same rider. A great dog will make anybody look good and a great handler look great. A great handler will make a good dog look great. A weak dog is what it is.
<<This is just my own observation ....but I am not a trainer and I am sure I will get corrected on this.>> This is an argument, not a correction. The correction is that anybody that does anything with a dog is a trainer, as are you. It's too cute to pretend otherwise. That's what we trainers call avoidence behavior.
Woof, Dave in NYC
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Post by morgan on Jul 12, 2006 12:35:41 GMT -5
Curt, Not for nothing, but.. Although my MacDuff has a fine reputation and is a pretty accomplished bird dog, all my "training" buddies think he's an idiot. One of my best friends told me yesterday that he was sure I'd committed some grevious sins in my previous life, and this dog was my penance. Sometimes you have to solve problems and evaluate, and sometimes you just have to go to work.
Dave in NYC
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Post by jsf13 on Jul 12, 2006 15:05:23 GMT -5
Maybe what Gator needs is a break. Time off. Time to be a normal companion dog, kept in the house with his family. Let him grow up mentally. Then in a year come back and see how non-bonded and non-preydriven he is! JMHO! Curt I feel your disappointment. Maybe Theresa is on to something.
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Post by hicntry on Jul 12, 2006 16:34:07 GMT -5
I will just have to counter your correction with a correction Dave. I don't recall saying handling hurts or help the confident dog. It is a moot point to a good dog. It definitely helps the weak pups. At 4 weeks with no handling, the confident dogs come strolling right up to me, the weaker ones won't. They shy away, they may run at my approach. Some may run with their tails straight up in the air. They are not unconfident but they don't want to be handled. You have to watch all the signs when categorizing them. Now Dave, If we lined 10 pups up in a row....let's say that litter you just had. They probably appear to be real close in confidence etc, etc. They were thrust into a human environment with constant handling. they were conditioned. Now we line up ten of my pups at 4 weeks. Well now, there is three over there than are hesitant about coming over. The others are their own dog, come to you, the come say hi, and are of exploring the universe. I look at those the seven, while you are drawn, as a trainer, to the ones that more need your services. While those are the ones you are drawn to so you can train, me being me, I will give them to you because I have learned that a good solid dog can do it better and learns any game faster without to much work. I want to hunt, not spend endless hours trying to teach a dog something because he has holes. There is nothing wrong with that Dave. You like to fixem, I don't want them to need fixing unless it is with super glue or staples. What makes a really great trainer IMHO is not all based on knowledge of training Dave, it is the ability to pick the right dogs that don't really need much training. We will probably never agree on certain things Dave but it is fun correcting each other. By the way Dave, I was going to send you the first pup that wouldn't swim or that swam with his tail tucked. Maybe the next batch will have some. I figure you may enjoy the challenge of turning them into titled retrievers rather than start of with a natural. Just kidding you Dave, you trainer, you. I do have to ask though, Out of all the pups and dogs you have seen here raised my way, and comments by different people, how detrimental do you think not handling them for 4 weeks is? If I thought it would improve them, I would do it. At least I can tell the confident dogs from the less.
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alex
Hunter/worker
Posts: 130
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Post by alex on Jul 12, 2006 17:44:04 GMT -5
Don,
In regards to your reply to Dave, a few questions, if I may:
- do you believe in a "pick of the litter"? - from your experience - did you have puppies that don't look so good at 8 weeks turn out to be phenomenal and some that look great just fizzle out? - do you think that any rearing process is necessary?
Keep in mind that I'm asking from the trainers (be it protection or obedience, or any other SPORT) prospective, not hunters.
Thanks...
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Alisa
Hunter/worker
Posts: 156
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Post by Alisa on Jul 12, 2006 18:30:14 GMT -5
To Breeders and Trainers in General, I guess there is a big difference between the attitudes and approaches of the breeders, trainers and us - ”mere” handlers. After all – the breeder can sell the unpromising “stock”, the trainer can get rid of his two Airedales “because they wouldn't work at a level that he wanted to achieve” and we poor souls remain stuck with what we’ve got for life. No wonder each owner is desperate to hear any and all tricks of the trade, knowledgeable advice, new and old methods that work, ANYTHING to make your ONE AND ONLY friend, companion and brother in arms the BEST HE CAN BE. Oh, yes, we are told again and again, pick the breeder, pick the litter, pick the right puppy, yada, yada, yada. So everyone tries to their best – but once the deed is done – it’s OVER! Now you’ve got what you’ve got – sometimes exactly what you dreamed and hoped for and sometimes not quite, but by that time it’s too late – you can’t just turn around and say you know, this puppy swims with his tail tucked and I really wanted a good swimmer – so why don’t you take him back and let me try another puppy. We are invested – not only money (although that too – food, toys, training aids, classes, vets, etc, etc, etc…) but also emotionally – by this time you LOVE the DARN DAWG! So yeah, I will train my puppy to swim, work on human bond with a weird ring and anything else I can do to make MY dog successful. To Curt, I am not sure why you got so discouraged. If you are being attacked- will not Gator spring to your defense and rip the bad guys head off? Does it really matter if he brings it to your right hand when you specifically requested that it be your left hand? (After all chances are there might not be much left of that head anyway – ask Southern what Airedales do with heads when they are really pissed off) So the PSA guy said the prey drive and defense drive are low, so maybe they are and maybe they are not, but that’s not the point. SOOO WHAT? I do not believe for a moment that you can’t title him because of that – all it means you’ve got to work harder and use alternative tactics, methods and techniques – but you knew that when you started – you can’t train an Airedale like a GSD or a Malinois – it won’t work. And the bond they are talking about can not be natural for an Airedale – they are by design “independent” and will never cow with a slavery attitude.
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Post by maugh on Jul 12, 2006 18:44:48 GMT -5
Dave, That was a good post. I just try myself to evaluate where a dog is at and then come up with an appropriate training program that helps that dog get the job done. Gangster is a very different dog from Madonna. Madonna is a very different dog from Turk. Turk, SchH 3, never "allowed" people to "evaluate" his temperament just for the frivolity of doing so. He was a serious dog, and when the stakes got real, he got real. In my training class at Justamuc I get to see and even handle dogs with all sorts of temperaments. I have learned not to care about their temperament, the question is, can they get the job done. It is like at work. There are engineers of all sorts of temperaments that I have to deal with. I don't care about their drives. I don't really care about their temperament either, can they do the job, that is what I have to direct and teach. I have learned that there are dogs who don't really like to interact with people that much but do great bird work for example. Paavo did not want me to do any agitation work with Gangster. He thinks early agitation is poisonous, it snuffs out the natural drives and makes the dog reactive only and not driven from within. I have seen strong dogs block out the agitation efforts, because they are not reactive (they are too strong) and their prey drive has not yet matured. Maugh
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Post by hicntry on Jul 12, 2006 18:53:59 GMT -5
Alex, My first couple of litters were raised in the house. I conditioned them, I changed my mind on a daily basis and used the old, "this dog picked me" method. Made all the 1st and 2nd time mistakes. I have kept dogs that required bunches of work just to get them manageable. They were a pain in the A$$. Picking a good dog when they are all condtioned is tough. The breeder may have a good idea but nobody else does. Then it happened, I had a litter on the ground and got a big cage order from Busch Gardens or SeaWorld, don't remember which but I worked day and night for a month. Just put food in the pen and kept it clean in between naps and work. When the order was finished the pups were about 4 1/2 weeks old. I went out to see how bad they were going to be (because of all the new wave puppy rearing methods) and low and behold. I think 5 came right up to me and were really outgoing. The other 5 needed handling but came around shortly. I picked from the first five and it has always worked. Going back to some of the "wrong" picks I made that took a lot of time to get them workable. In retrospect, I always knew I wasn't happy with them yet spent years trying to "fix" them. They were not naturals like some of the others. They had to be treated with kid gloves. I came to the conclusion, if most people are honest with themselves, they subconsciously know, they are beating a dead horse, they just can't get rid of the lemon and try again. Lemons always leave a bitter taste in your mouth you know. Like I told Dave, I don't intend to train over a bunch of holes, I want to hunt, not train. My dogs have to have confidence and nerve to go looking for hogs, get cut up and want to do it again the next day. Hogs kill a lot of dogs. Doing what I do, you can't plug the holes, you can't train it as Dave suggests. They are born with all the equipment or they are not.
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Post by hicntry on Jul 12, 2006 19:28:35 GMT -5
Alex, missed part of your question. The dogs are pretty much place by what the person wants. Some dogs are combinations of confident, plus independent or dependent and many other things. I try to pick the dog for what it will be used for.
Alisa, I understand where you are coming from. Many people ,Handlers as you put it, would get rid of a dog just as fast as a hunter or trainer would, don't kid yourself. Many won't but what the heck, if gives you something to work at together. They are still top notch companions. I had a nice dog, hard hunter, great nose, everything. He was my buddy. First gun fired, he was gone back to the truck. I don't have the desire to fix the problem when there are so many that don't need fixing. I fed him and played with him for 3 more years till I could find him a home on a ranch. Three years that dog took up space that a good dog could have occupied!!!! That is why I listen to those little voices that tell me this dog isn't for me....early. I never figure I will make it work. I had a beautiful pup named Jim Beam. Dang, that dog loved me. Any time I opened the door that dog was right there waiting for me. He was a sweetie. I heard that little voice telling me he was to soft. Sold him the first chance I got and the people love him. He has spent his life on Martha's Vineyard, loving everyone and running in the sand. Because I don't like them usually means most everyone else will love them. Another story.....Odin, who I really like, was jumped by Hunter in the field one day. He rolled over and submitted without even striking back. Don't think I didnt notice that with displeasure....but I didn't hear the voices. I thought about it and the same thing happened with is dad Titan. I didn't hear the voices then either, Titan pulls ears off hog....was just a slow starter, as was Winchester. I can stand there and see Odin changing an a weekly basis. I think it almost becomes an instinct after a while Alisa. Even if it is sub conscious, you are drawn to certain types of dogs. Follow your instincts and don't look back.
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Post by morgan on Jul 12, 2006 20:03:55 GMT -5
Don, I hear ya, I just think you're mistaken is all. It's a talk board, so...
Training doesn't exist to fix problems, as you seem to suggest. It's like the folks who think great musicians never study or practice, they're just "born with it". That's as silly as suggesting talent doesn't exist, on the other tack. Your method of selection works for you-that's cool. I don't want to play the "my puppies did this" and all with you. The bold ones, who came right up at 5 weeks after no human interaction would have become truly great if a man and a woman had handled them every day from 2 days old. Training, conditioning, confidence building makes every dog better, not just the "needy" ones.
They used to shoot upland dogs in the ass to steady them to wing and shot. It worked (if you were a good shot). A stick and a long line works too, but takes longer. An e collar and remote launcher works great, but it's kinda modern. I like driving a clutch (call me old fashioned), but I'm glad the horse and buggy aren't needed.
Just because something works, doesn't mean it can't be improved on-it's the American way.
Just twisting that tail Don, good thing it's cropped shot enuf-Dave
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Post by morgan on Jul 12, 2006 20:06:49 GMT -5
And another thing!!!
<<Doing what I do, you can't plug the holes, you can't train it as Dave suggests.>>
C'mon Don, I never suggested this, ever. Dave
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