Keeping 'em Separated

[hicntry]

"The bold ones, who came right up at 5 weeks after no human interaction would have become truly great if a man and a woman had handled them every day from 2 days old."

I won't deny that Dave......but you got to be able to tell which one's they are. That is what I am saying. Not that any of this mumbo jumbo doesn't really benefit them.....with handling from 2 days old, you just have a crap shoot at picking them. So someone says, I want a top notch bird dog, what do you say,"they all look good to me, take your pick?" You have all these ideas on how to test puppies to "find" the good ones. All I am saying is if they were left to be dogs for the first four weeks, you could tell without a doubt. Even the test have a lot of room for error. The problem I find with "newer" is that it is just like a better mousetrap. It is just a case of someone trying to fix something that wasn't broke. Question, all of these famous books written by trainers(Heckler and Koch) that keep getting praised. None of them are recent are they? Some things just don't need fixing because they worked fine. Years ago, you went out and looked at a litter in the barn , garage, or whatever, and you knew at a glance which one you were going to keep. With all the better ways of doing things you can't do that any more can you. Gotta test this and gotta test that. Throw some keys at them, bang on some pans, take them to unfamiliar territory, like outside maybe, to guess at what they are made of. You really consider that a big step forward do you??? I guess we just have a different perspective on it. All kidding aside Dave, if you can tell me how that is an improvement in a way that makes sense to a conservative, I may just convert. Here is your chance. You do know that showbreeders started all this "raise em in the house stuff." don't you. They just couldn't stand going out in the cold and rain to take care of them. Once indoors, they ceased to be animals and became the human equal. You know, replace the kids when they left home and all that. You do know that?

[melanie]

hicntry said:

"You do know that showbreeders started all this "raise em in the house stuff." don't you. They just couldn't stand going out in the cold and rain to take care of them. Once indoors, they ceased to be animals and became the human equal. You know, replace the kids when they left home and all that. You do know that?

Oh Don. Here I was all agreeing on the "old fashioned way" then you had to say this. Don, my Airedales in the 50's were ALWAYS house dogs, and show breeders had nothing to do with it what-so-ever. People had family dogs. They lived in the house Whit the family! They had puppies in the house ! Back in the days where fencing wasn't an issue (except for combative Airedales taunted by bullies that were weaklings!) They provided companionship, protection and fun. It was the American Way. Shoot, There is such a thing as a 3 dog night - dogs were brought in the bed for warmth!

But that was then and this is now and where our dogs used to get the table scraps and no one heard of heartworm, and the dogs were still healthy and hearty as could be, we now have to deal with deviant genes. This is where the show breeders come in. They've reduced most breeds to a malfunctioning adrenal system to get the "pretty dog". There is why today, good pups ARE hard to come by, as the traits we handlers/trainers look for are damaged by faulty breeding practices with damaged dogs. (If you want to know more about this adrenal thing, I can refer you to some reading.)

Peace.



[glow=red,2,300]Mel[/glow]

[hicntry]

Melanie, who was refering to the 50's. Go back to the twenties and see how many eyebrows would raise if you had a litter outside....none. There has been a gradual decline well before the fifties. Besides, I was giving Dave something to correct me on. I did make it up but I will also bet it is pretty close to being true. \
Not to change the subject but these debates are where I learn a lot. I think it was Michael that said " People usually end up with the dogs they deserve." Well, I believe he is right. I am looking at two dogs doing what they know better than to do.....and they are both looking me right in the eye as they are doing it. Do you really think they are deliberately doing it to get a reaction? Now that is scarey. Maybe they are becoming human. ;D

[hicntry]

Dave, you said
"Training doesn't exist to fix problems".
What do you call confidence building? What do you call drive motivation. What do you call behavior modification? If a dog doesn't have enough confidence or drive, I call it a problem unless I want a pet. Training soul purpose may not be to fix problems but a good part of itis to build up what isn't there...... that just sounds like putting a patch on a tube that has a hole in it to me. Help me understand this concept. What am I missing?

[morgan]

Don,
here's an interesting site: www.vonfalconer.com/puppy.html.

No Don, training isn't to fix problems or to build what isn't there. It's to discover what is. You do lots of this stuff, just later than you should and sort of blindly.

Dave

[melanie]

hicntry said:

Melanie, who was refering to the 50's. Go back to the twenties and see how many eyebrows would raise if you had a litter outside....none. There has been a gradual decline well before the fifties. Besides, I was giving Dave something to correct me on. I did make it up but I will also bet it is pretty close to being true. \
Not to change the subject but these debates are where I learn a lot. I think it was Michael that said " People usually end up with the dogs they deserve." Well, I believe he is right. I am looking at two dogs doing what they know better than to do.....and they are both looking me right in the eye as they are doing it. Do you really think they are deliberately doing it to get a reaction? Now that is scarey. Maybe they are becoming human. ;D

I'm sorry, Don, I can personally only go back to the 50's. ;D But I think you are right for eras previous to mine. Airedales have cycled through the decades where they were popular, then not, then popular again, and each time they reached popularity, breeders worked a little harder at destroying them. Selling dogs is the goal of breeders, not breeding GOOD dogs. (and I;m not including ALL breeders, just the - ACK! showbreeders.) Susu came from a show breeder, and she's a nice dog, but I'm not real enamored of her looks and working ability. But she not proven yet, and she might surprise me! I hope.

Yes, I think your dogs are doing it to get a reaction! Iko does stuff like that all the time. He's very benign about it, but he steals my stuff and prances it before me, staring into my eyes, fully knowing that I'll make chase, or at least give him a reaction, which is all he's looking for. My attention!

To me, "Getting the dog you deserve" isn't so much about the dog, it's about the way you've trained and handled said dog. I believe one gets the dog he/she NEEDS. That's where one's learning experiences grow. The professional trainers and ones who are very experienced in dog training have learned how to get the dog you deserve (or NEED). But that is because they've run the gauntlet of bad, better and best choices! We make our mistakes on each dog. Lets just hope we are making "new" mistakes! Ah, the learning process!

Every dog I've had has been the "best " dog ever! And mine get better with each dog and each handling experience. You make better choices when you have more experience under your belt!

Peace!



[glow=red,2,300]Mel[/glow]

[Alisa]

hicntry said:

I am looking at two dogs doing what they know better than to do.....and they are both looking me right in the eye as they are doing it. Do you really think they are deliberately doing it to get a reaction? Now that is scarey. Maybe they are becoming human. ;D

Very typical! Yesterday Zander was nagging to get outside, I wanted to finish watching the show and kept telling him to wait till the commercial. Finally, Zander stood right in front of the TV and looking me straight into the eyes placed a large poop on the floor. Do you think he was deliberate? Really???

[hicntry]

"No Don, training isn't to fix problems or to build what isn't there. It's to discover what is. You do lots of this stuff, just later than you should and sort of blindly.

Dave "

Well Dave, I guess I can't convert to your way because that answer says zip. That is no answer....just repeated what you already said. As for the

"You do lots of this stuff, just later than you should and sort of blindly."

You will have to forgive my amusement over this statement. This comes from someone with the vast experience and knowledge to prefer to have an 8 min. dog over a two minute dog on fur? I really need to qualify why you are right and I am wrong. Outside of McDuff, you must have trained a lot of dogs to a high level Dave....how many?? How many of your own dogs have you hunted behind. Now this will be a tough one Dave, how many litters have you raised and seen reach maturity and work? Now, with the numbers that you are going to supply, I may suggest that you making such a broad statement, as the one above, might be like me telling you don't know music. I am sorry Dave, I really didn't take the comment seriously but, some of the others may think your speaking from a wealth of actual experience .

[hicntry]

Interesting email on another pup raised without handling the first 4 weeks.

Don,

I got a new cell phone, it will finally hold a charge for three whole
days.

I want you to know that this dog is amazing, I just love the nuts out of
her. I thought German Wirehairs were smart. Your dog makes them look
like a charity case. We have been running and learning sit on a place
board. It took her three times and she mastered the board. Next time
we talk I will tell you how we started the Coyote training. You will
laugh but it seems to be really working.

My cousin doesn't have the money right now but, I know after I get Lucy
trained; I definitely will be buying another dog from you. Stay cool,
and keep in touch.

The female pup will be 5 mo the 25th. I have no idea what a place board is but the guy used to fielf trial wire hairs so I would guess he knows what a dog is. Actually, If I thought the coddling method was better for a working dog, I would definitely use it but.....This pup is supposed to be in OH also.

[jsf13]

morgan said:

Don,
here's an interesting site: www.vonfalconer.com/puppy.html.

I had to remove the last period (after html ) to view this site.Good info! Thanks.

[hicntry]

I read that on the puppy whelping and rearing Joe. I have just got to shake my head and wonder if everyone believes this BS. I would be scared to think of how many pups I have raised with no touching way past their "critical time" and those pups are all over anyone that comes in the yard. I must say, it makes them sound professional even if it is BS. A lot of people just suck this stuff up like it is the elixir of the gods. Remember Ken Wolters(I think) magical 49th day for the removal from the litter??? That is so much BS also. Pups develop at strikingly different rates. Influenced by when they were conceived, and largely by size. Make it sound technical and just about anyone with little to no hands on experience will believe it.

[jsf13]

Don I think the difference is that for many of us who have never bred a litter and probably never will,it is very interesting to learn when a pup's eyes open,when their ears start working,when they become aware of their environment,etc.,etc.

Someone like yourself,on the other hand who has witnessed many litters being born would be much more aware of the variables involved.ie that all pups don't develop at exactly the same rate either physically or mentally. And all the other things you have posted here which I have enjoyed learning and which there is no need to repeat.

I guess people like me are little naive in the quest for that perfect dog FOR US and programs like these help us to believe that getting a pup from someone like that gives us just a little headstart,as we're probably not going to get the pick of the litter and wouldn't know how to pick it if we did. I have no doubt that your methods work just the way you say they do and would have no hesitation in defining my wants to you and letting you choose a pup for me. The problem is there are not many breeders like you out there. Your methods work very well.Your dogs are proof of that!

[melanie]

alisazap said:

To Breeders and Trainers in General,

I guess there is a big difference between the attitudes and approaches of the breeders, trainers and us - ”mere” handlers. After all – the breeder can sell the unpromising “stock”, the trainer can get rid of his two Airedales “because they wouldn't work at a level that he wanted to achieve” and we poor souls remain stuck with what we’ve got for life. No wonder each owner is desperate to hear any and all tricks of the trade, knowledgeable advice, new and old methods that work, ANYTHING to make your ONE AND ONLY friend, companion and brother in arms the BEST HE CAN BE.
Oh, yes, we are told again and again, pick the breeder, pick the litter, pick the right puppy, yada, yada, yada. So everyone tries to their best – but once the deed is done – it’s OVER! Now you’ve got what you’ve got – sometimes exactly what you dreamed and hoped for and sometimes not quite, but by that time it’s too late – you can’t just turn around and say you know, this puppy swims with his tail tucked and I really wanted a good swimmer – so why don’t you take him back and let me try another puppy.
We are invested – not only money (although that too – food, toys, training aids, classes, vets, etc, etc, etc…) but also emotionally – by this time you LOVE the DARN DAWG!
So yeah, I will train my puppy to swim, work on human bond with a weird ring and anything else I can do to make MY dog successful.

To Curt,

I am not sure why you got so discouraged. If you are being attacked- will not Gator spring to your defense and rip the bad guys head off? Does it really matter if he brings it to your right hand when you specifically requested that it be your left hand? (After all chances are there might not be much left of that head anyway – ask Southern what Airedales do with heads when they are really pissed off)
So the PSA guy said the prey drive and defense drive are low, so maybe they are and maybe they are not, but that’s not the point. SOOO WHAT? I do not believe for a moment that you can’t title him because of that – all it means you’ve got to work harder and use alternative tactics, methods and techniques – but you knew that when you started – you can’t train an Airedale like a GSD or a Malinois – it won’t work. And the bond they are talking about can not be natural for an Airedale – they are by design “independent” and will never cow with a slavery attitude.

Wonderful post, Aliza!

[hicntry]

Thank you Joe. What everyone seems to be missing here is that way back when, dogs were expected to earn their keep. They were working dogs. A very large percentage of them had to earn the keep in order to stay. Dogs were raised much the same way I do. It isn't my method really. People picked dogs with such confidence, they made their choice and got rid of the rest, one way or another. There was a day you could actually pick a darn solid pup out of a litter. If you want to raise pet dogs or show dogs, go ahead and keep the whelping box next to your bed. I am sure it is the best place for them. We are talking working dogs and being able to pick them in a world full of dumbed down dogs. It is tough. I have raised em in the house and played with the pups religiously. It didn't hurt them. I have raised them with kennel gates open with an obstacle course for them to earn their freedom into the yard. I thought that was the cats meow until I realized I had a yard full of pack bonded pups. I have tried a lot of different things. Some worked, kind of, some were a miserable failure resulting in big time pack bonding. I didn't just wake up one morning and decide this is how I am going to do it. This was just the only way I could tell what the pups were and still have well balanced pups.

[hicntry]

Maybe it is semantics which is the problem. Maybe training indicated to much of a direct goal. Does the phrase "train around" something put it a better perspective. Everyone has heard that phrase used. Maybe covering holes up is just the wrong use of words. Training doesn"t cover up hole, they are "trained around"
Little minor things like, low prey drive, lack of desire.. On the other hand, maybe some just don't really consider low prey drive or lack of desire to be holes or big strikes against a dog....because they can be trained around. Think about this, how would you train around low prey drive and lack of desire on a fur track so that/those dogs would have a chance of passing? How about by making it an obedience track. No desire or prey drive needed there......just training. A dog can be taught to fetch birds up with very little prey drive or desire. Lack of either of these attributes in any hunting dog is a big hole. The shooters at the nationals say they can definitley tell the trained dogs from the real deal dogs even though they both do the same job.

I think this thread may have strayed a little with Dave defending the idealistic reasons for training. I am not picking at Dave or trainers. It is what it is but training can cover up a lot that is lacking in a dog. Lets call it "Better dogs through training".