Self Train? Hire a Trainer?

[phil]

Good job Ed!
This thread is about training. Not Breeding per say.
However seeing you brought it up.
The standards that I look at when considering breeding take in account the physical and mental apptitudes of the considered breeding pair.

Physically for me hips and eyes have to be sound, Speed and stamina have to be demonstrated, Nose, mouth, and courage in the face of tough cover,and the ability to mark the fall of a the long bird.

Mentally, breeding prospects must demonstrate they can handle the rigors of steadying and the ability withstand the pressure of the long directed retrieves, they must be GOOD problem solvers.

Quite honestly it is in the advanced training stages that will determine breeding viabilty.. For example how impressive would the breeding be between Junior hunter dogs be . Breeding between 2 Master dogs would tend to perk my ears a bit..
Has that ever happened in the Airedale breed???

Folks, Airedales are a devided breed whether you want to admit it or not treat them as such...I thank God that the English Springer Spaniel is devided..Field and Bench and the two shall never meet. today they are different dogs both in the field and around the hearth.
Just like some of the Dales. For example Don should never go very far east to find a stud especially on a certain weekend in Mongomery county
..Develop your blood.. train your blood.. do not mix your blood...unless it is out of dogs that have the same appitude as your blood..Cull your blood....It is the only way you can HARDWIRE a blood line..

Hal

[phil]

Ed,
Ed after some 30 yrs of training dogs of all sorts of conflicted blood lines, breeder claims do not impress me much.. as in the words fo that great American. Ronald Reagan
"Trust, but verify"
training is the only way... It is the verification of all that is canine! Without it you still have just a Swamp Collie!!

Hal

[hicntry]

"Personally I think it is a concept that is difficult for people to put their arms around when they are in involved in Pass/Fail events or evaluations..Once you enter the world of winner takes all it becomes very cyrstal clear."

That says it all Hal. When the winner takes all, all the dogs will improve dramatically. While dogs are amoral, people are competative. The want to be in the winners circle. When that concept is understood, the airedale, as a viable hunting companion, will progress at a much faster rate.

[ed]

"training is the only way... It is the verification of all that is canine! Without it you still have just a Swamp Collie!!"

As a young boy I had a JRT that lived to 14 and would hunt coons,woodchucks, eradicate cats, guard the house,retrieve the paper and stand up to man or beast.Trix would pull ducks and coots out of cold November Fox Lake(not as quick or stylish as a Lab).
Now that I think of it, that little swamp collie would have been some dog if anyone at the houuse knew how to train.

Your hole dogs, cold nosed hounds,,treeing curs. feists, flock guards,catch dogs. racing greyhounds .....being chosen and bred all these years by how well they train. Guess I'll have to just think about training is the only way some more.

[phil]

Don...Your understanding is exactly correct. Ed, Only the strong dogs get my attention, Dogs with great appitutde are nurtured and developed the same way potentially great athletes are developed.
By training the strong dog you will stregthen your breeding and discover good solid traits that you may have over looked. In this thread there is neither time or space to explain this concept. However because of this type thinking all across this great land by good solid dog people, the field bred Springer is 5 times the dog it was 25 yrs old, The Labrador is doing things in competition that are just amazing, compare to 25 yrs ago.
Weak dogs should be, neutered sent to the dark hole of the pet dog world, and turn into coach spuds...( or worse).. The strong must be found to carry the breed to new heights. If the limits of behavior modification are not explored, no one on this earth will ever know, how good the Airedale, as a breed really could be?.. And the exploration is a blast..As I often say "training a dog most fun you can have with your clothes on"!

Hal

[hicntry]

Hal, I have to assume there are a lot of titled dog that you would'nt breed to also. Otherwise I would have to assume the competition level has reach such high standards that a so so dog could never attain a title even with the best trainer....or politics. My guess is that there are some very strong dogs, mostly produced by small breeders, accidentally, that are taking up space on a couch because no one actually knows what they have there. The problem is, no one knows they are there. As a breeder, I want to see what the dog has naturally. That is why I test them of fur. If they have all the natural drives in spade, a trainer can then take them where his ability will permit. The breeders job is to make sure the natuaral talents are there, the trainer job is to devlope those talents.

[phil]

Don,
Right on.... Titles really do not mean that much in the scheme of things..and lot of Champion go unfulfilled as far their sex lives are concerned.
As for breeders in my world they are not breeders for very long unless they also train. Or how else would they figure out what to breed their bitch to in the first place. What does she need to make strong pups??
Just so we are on the same page. And we may not be.....dogs..Sorry, folks unless you can explain to me how to "force" a dog to indicate fur scent. Training and Conditioning are 2 different arena's
Training is a 3 prong program of Teaching..Force....maintaining levels of develop
Conditioning (Fur) is turning dogs loose and waiting for the barking to begin..
None of these posts has any thing to do with fur work. May be a passion for some... just not my bag..
A side thought... If the new H/W program is going to fly, It is going need the Flushing /Retrieveing venues to lead the way. Sorry, Fur can't handle the weight! Not enough numbers and the distances that have to covered just to get to gether to find a coon in a box, just to great.. That is the whole reason for the so called 3-in-1 Dog..
Specialization would really reduce the attendance figures...
The difference in breeding Fur Dogs Or Flush/Retrieve dogs.
is treamendous, personally I would not do it I would specialize just like you have Don, it only makes sense.
My own breed of dogs are pheasant specialists, I do nor spend any time on Retriever like Blind retrieve's with my spaniels that would idiotic. Like wise, with the non-slip dogs I never give them any upland flushing work..
How ever with Airedales in my care I throw the book at em,
Don, keep doing what is best for your blood, stay true to your goals....Just set those goals high

Hal

[hicntry]

I agree wiuth you and many things Hal, but, I disagree on your premise that a dog doesn't reallyt need to be bred as the total package. First off, dog hunt birds and that is as natural as hunting fur. Doing the way you want it done and bringing it back to you is traineing. You have given me the i centive, even though I am not a bird hunter, to take Dobb' seminar. I look for drive and I can show it to you even with birds. That is not training.

[phil]

Thats great!, Don, time spent with Jim Dobbs will be a super time. You do not have to be a bird hunter, JD is very well versed in literally all canine activities that take place in the great outdoors. Whether it be upland, retriever shultzhund, or fur..
Drive is motor that gets are dogs to where we want them to be, training is the transmission. Have you ever blown a tranny? Without it you are dead in the water. Standards would be the rear end gears.. Wheel spinning high-end torque or cruising gears for good gas mileage.
It takes all 3 to make a good vehicle.
Last Saturday,at training class we ran a Dale that had not seen any upland work since this past August. Her training the last 3 months had been strictly non-slip retriever work.
Triples, quads, and blinds. On the multiples she was not allowed to select which one to retrieve next. Thats was strictly decided on by the handler..
Her` upland work was flawless on her flyers, strong ground coverage,perfectly steady with spot-on marking and of course a perfect to hand delivery...
I only mention this because the only way a dog of any breed can manage this kind of performance is because we set the standards at that level. Without standards I would not train either. It's the reason to build a dog in the first place.
I know we were able to do this because this dog can be given a "tranny and a rear end" change. Her ability to accept training and handling even though we change venues goes back to her basic training the field in beginning.
Have a great time at the Dobbs Training Center

Hal

[Maverick]

phil said:

Last Saturday,at training class we ran a Dale that had not seen any upland work since this past August. Her training the last 3 months had been strictly non-slip retriever work.
Triples, quads, and blinds. On the multiples she was not allowed to select which one to retrieve next. Thats was strictly decided on by the handler..

I can see I am going to get myself in trouble already...

First off, a blind retrieve means that I was watching a bird fall and the dog wasn't. In my book, the dog already has a major strike against it.

Now lets look at multiples from a hunter's perspective. First off, I would have to be much better with a scatter gun to have to worry about more than a rare double. But let's say that I am better and I have a really talented gunner as a partner, so that a triple or quad is possible. Now my limited experience is that we would both be more likely looking for the next target, than we would be taking the time to mark the falls. Also in my limited experience, the dog was a pointing breed, and he was just standing there until sent for a retrieve. So I ask, who should be marking downed birds, me or my partner who are trying to knock a few down, or the dog which is just standing there without much else to do? My feeling is that if I can knock 'em down, it is the dog's job to mark and retrieve. If the dog has drive and desire to bring them back to hand, I will let him figure out the best way to get the job done the quickest way possible so that we can get back to .............. HUNTING!

Sure, triple and quad blind retrieves are fun and entertaining to watch, plus shows the ability to be trained and willingness to follow direction. Impressive! But in my book, this is no different than a circus act! I'm being blunt, but do not intend offense, and am not trying to belittle the dog or trainer, but let's get real! The more time a dog has to divert his attention to your verbal or hand signal direction, the less time he to do his job, or learn to do it better. Plus, how can the poor dog concentrate on the working the problem out? A dog winds up depending on his trainer/handler to tell him what to do and how to do it. What happens when you don't know where the bird is? The dog is waiting for you to tell him where it is. What happens when the bird is not where you think it fell, and you keep directing the dog to find a bird that isn't there anymore? And, when he thinks he should follow the scent trail of the wounded bird, you direct him back to where you "know" it is, what is your dog to make of it?

If the goal is to demonstrate the skill of the trainer, then fine, what you described is a great performance. But if your goal is to demonstrate the dog's hunting ability/usefulness, then you have failed in my book, as blind retrieves shows me only that with a lot of time and work, a dog that can't adequately mark fallen birds, can somewhat make up for it, and now I have to do both my job and half or more of his.

The demonstration of a dog making triple and quad retrieves in the order you specify shows a high level of training, but may also cover up the dogs inability to think for himself. If I were designing the test, it would be in rough nasty terrain to show the power and grit of the Airedale, and then time how long it took for him to put the last bird in my hand. I'm sorry, but your Airedale performance description just shouts Robodale (doublely sorry Maugh ) to me! Which may be the epitome of a well trained dog, but does not say much about his hunting ability to me.

Her` upland work was flawless on her flyers, strong ground coverage,perfectly steady with spot-on marking and of course a perfect to hand delivery...

Sounds good, but how demanding was the terrain, how long were the retrieves, and what kind of obstacles were between the dog and the downed bird?

I only mention this because the only way a dog of any breed can manage this kind of performance is because we set the standards at that level. Without standards I would not train either. It's the reason to build a dog in the first place.

The confirmation people set high standards too , but it is limited to performance in the showring, though they may claim more.

I know we were able to do this because this dog can be given a "tranny and a rear end" change. Her ability to accept training and handling even though we change venues goes back to her basic training the field in beginning.

• Does the dog have the physical ability to do the job asked of it? Like a race car , winners are not determined in a showroom, but "in the field" (track).
  
• Does the dog have the desire to do the work/job asked of it? You never know 100% until they actually confronted with it, though there may be some clues from similar situations.
  
• Does the dog have the drive to overcome cold, heat, rough terrain, obstacles, and other adverse conditions in the pursuit of completing it's job?
  
• Does the dog have the intelligence to work out new problems that it encounters in pursuit of its desires (game tricks, new environments, etc.)?
  
• Does the dog work as part of a team working with you, or for itself where you follow it? Matter of taste in some situations, but many situations require teamwork.
  

The last 2 questions are important to me, as I think they get overlooked too often. For an all around dog, I want a dog that independently does its job as part of my team. I don't want the dog's independence to mean that the only reason we are a team is because I am always chasing him, and neither do I want a dog that I have to train how to react to every nuanced situation he may encounter. Once he knows the goal, and his part (which is at least 50% decided by him -- desire drives him to do as much as he is physically and mentally able to do as part of the team), it is up to him to figure out quickly and intelligently the fastest/best way to get his part done.

Pete

[phil]

EGGERS!
That puzzles me that you can come out with platitudes concerning the Sporting life and not even understand what you are talking about.
Obviously you find the idea of training a dog a big waste of time.
How unfortunate. Gems are where you find them but with out the polishing you will neevr know their true value..

You probable should not try to follow real dog people it would be a very boring journey..

Hal Standish
Gundog Training Center and Shooting School
Three Rivers, Mi

[Maverick]

phil said:

EGGERS!
That puzzles me that you can come out with platitudes concerning the Sporting life and not even understand what you are talking about.

Specifically, what is it that I don't understand? I must admit, I am confused as I associate "the sporting life" with gambling, especially on sports, and I thought we were talking about dog training, retrieving in particular.

Obviously you find the idea of training a dog a big waste of time.

Obviously, I have failed to communicate that it is not training that I am objecting to, but what is being trained for.

Manners is something that a dog does not naturally come with, at least none that I have owned. This includes waiting quietly until I tell him "OK" to eat; not challenging other dogs when out hunting, out for a walk, riding in the truck/car; housebreaking; only chewing on his chew toys; not jumping on people; etc.

Recall. I like to decide when it is time to leave, or when it is best to have the dog at heal.

Manners and recall is pretty much the basis of training for all of my dogs.

In the last several years, I have had earth dogs (real working terriers) and in the last couple of years, running dogs (hunting sighthounds, lurchers, etc.). The need for complicated direction from me is basically non-existent.

In my younger days, I gave AKC obedience training a try. I had a 5 month old crazy Kerry Blue puppy at the time and was working in a warehouse. I ran him through his paces for 5 minutes during both the morning and afternoon breaks, and about 15 minutes during lunch. In just over a month, I had him doing sits, downs, comes, figure 8s, long downs, etc., off lead with either verbal commands or hand signals, straight or mixed. The training broke the boredom at the warehouse, and I needed to let the pup out anyway. It was fun to out perform the other dogs that had been in the class for many months too, especially after I was told by the instructor to not expect much and to count on putting a lot of effort over some months to get the basics down for leash training with such a wild hard headed terrier pup. It was fun at the time due to circumstances, but I have never felt it necessary, nor had the inclination, to do proper AKC obedience training in the decades since.

I had a GWP, Boomer (AKC reg.: Cascade Fast Freight) a number of years ago after having 2 Airedales fail at being useful hunting dogs. Unfortunately, he only wanted to hunt game birds, obsessed actually, and I was never really interested in birds and was a lousy wing shot. Never had a bird dog before Boomer (or since), nor hunted with one. Other than recall and manners, I didn't teach him anything. The breeder talked be into putting him into a puppy stake at 9 months of age. He was on one planted pigeon the week before at an afternoon practice session that the breeder put on. Looked like he was pre-wired. At the field trial (foot handled) he pretty much blew away the competition, taking the blue ribbon. I never gave him a single command, except "OK" at the starting line, and "here" when time was called. He went on to take 2nd place in the 1985 national GWP field derby and complete the NAVHDA natural ability test with a perfect score before he was 3 years old. He went on to finish in the top ten field trial GWPs nationally 2 years running, while only competing in Washington and Oregon field trials. One of the few GWPs around at that time that could run with the (English) Pointers and beat them at their own game. Yet he would pace himself for a full day's hunt, whether hunting forest grouse (ruffed, blue, etc.) at short range in the forests of the Cascade Mtns. or running a 1000 yards out looking for Hun coveys in the giant wheat fields of eastern Washington, always out front and always in contact. This he learned on his own, as he was focussed on finding birds for me to (attempt to ) shoot. He never failed to find downed birds that other hunter's dogs couldn't find, and never lost a downed bird himself, winged or not. Excelled at hunting any game bird, land or water, but as I said, he had no interest in anything with fur. Bummer. Would have gotten rid of him, if he wasn't so much fun to watch, and bird hunting was OK, just not my favorite hunting. Being a poor wing shot may have had something to do with it. ;D

How unfortunate. Gems are where you find them but with out the polishing you will neevr know their true value..

And you can't tell a cubic zirconia from a diamond unless you test it. But, I thought we were talking about hunting dogs, and bird work in particular.

You probable should not try to follow real dog people it would be a very boring journey.

Well, can't argue there! I always find following a real hunting dog more interesting than real dog people, I never was much good at following someone else -- found that boring long ago when I was still wet behind the ears.

Hal Standish
Gundog Training Center and Shooting School
Three Rivers, Mi

Appears you spend a lot of time training gundogs. Whether it is "Hal Standish, Gundog Training Center and Shooting School", or just plain Hal, it matters little to me. I was not intimidated by the pro-trainers I beat consistently with Boomer when I was much younger and more impressionable, and I am less easily intimidated now. But hey, what difference does it make as long as your clients are happy?

Plain old Pete.

[phil]

Great information on your Boomer dog. Canine accomplishments,regardless of venue are always very interesting.
As a judge of record for pointing dog field trials I have known and judged some some very good GWP's. One that comes to mind was John Schoonover's great Marie bitch.(Indiana ).
She was the real deal Most AKC placements in the history of the sport..
Any way the Sporting life I refer to has nothing to do with wine,women or song..or dice.
It has to do with dog,guns, and cover..nasty cover!
I have noticed in perouseing this list that there is a number of terminology difference's that always seem to perk peoples ears.
The funniest one is H/W, For some reason the USA protection people alway think that ithe W in H/W refers to them When really it goes back to the UK(England). To mean, working retriever or working spaniel.. Not a protection OR "Man DoG" as the English refer to them
The parameters of the Retriever venues are often a great source of consternation for the pointing dog crowd. So I can understan how you not think that multiple and /or blind retrieves is a true test of a dogs worth , epsecially seeing how there is so much work involved in teaching these skills to dogs.

By the way Boomer carreer, was it under AKC, or FDSB sanctions though the differences are really slight .. I also understand the Nahvda work intimately, qualified 4 pups last year in the Natural ability test. I think that makes a total of 27 over the 7-8 years in that venue alone.

It shame you never got any good instruction on your wing shooting I have made quite a shot out of Maugh, and I have a feeling she is about your age. Once she recovers from a little set back she has had she will be my RT wing gun again this year at training class.

Hal Standish

[hicntry]

Phil, not intending to bust your chops here but something has always bothered me. I have heard, over and over again, about how they only have two monthys to get their dog ready for the NA test. Is it incorrectly labeled as Natural Ability. If one is looking to see what NA the pup has, why are they training it to pass thy test. Seems rather contradictory to me. Fur dogs got it or they don't...isn't something there that is natural about bird dogs or is it mostly reliant on training?

[phil]

Don,
The Navhda natural ability test is a real misnomer. In name only,
I'm not sure what the rules were in 1985 when Boomer qualified with a 'perfect score". However to enter the test today the dog may not of attained the age of 17months. Elements of the NaturaL ABILITY TEST INCLUDE BIRD WORK ..HAVE TO POINT
Water work ..have 2 swim twice , here in Michigan also have track a running pheasant. Tracking portion may have some regional differences. Though the pointing and water work would be the same just about every where

The training takes place is not for the Natural ability test as such. it is to prepare the dog for more advance work. The Natural A. test to me is nothing more than a Junior Hunter test in reality, as it's really just a blip on the rector scale as to where the dog is in it's development. For the Nahvda crowd the big enchilada is the Utility test which and I would think you could appreciate has a big Fur element to it. lots of tracking and retrieveing of furry creatures along with full standards to bird work and water
VDD.. the German test includes fur tracking and killing both live coons and tracking and retrieveing a dead fox..Did I say retrieveing a dead fox Yea! 300yrd track and retrieve very interesting training on that one. Trained a mutherF of a Drathar nameed OnYa for that test She scored a 12 on the water search of course she a 12 Duck to find, it was a thing of beauty
LOL.. As for busting my chops big guy, your built for comfort not speed!! LOL
NA is once an out type test. Once you have qualified there is no reason to repeat.. I wish the other test programs had that feature. ( AKC UKC ACTA,whichever committee)
You are given 2 opportunities to Q if needed But that's it.

The VDD is pass or fail HOWEVER you only get one shot at it. No repeat allowed.. So you better be prepared.
You know what luck is don't cha, Thats where preparation runs headlong into opportunity!
Merriest Merry's

Hal