|
Post by gunzndawgz on Nov 9, 2007 17:37:10 GMT -5
I'm curious as to what is the opinion of everyone regarding "hunt training" your dog by yourself verses sending your pooch off to gun school... I've had many good dogs and I've always started out with obedience school for teaching me mostly and socializing the dog. That was pretty much it for formal training. I've never owned a hunting dog. I've always had good buddies to hunt with that brought their dogs along.
On our last trip hunting grouse, I had two birds to shoot all weekend. I swear I walked 20 miles. The first bird flew down the tote road low over the dogs head. I didn't shoot. The second bird popped up and dropped about 20 yards in the woods. I marked the spot and started walking quietly toward it. I expect I looked much like Elmer Fudd tip-toeing. The dog had no idea where it went, although it was on my heals. As I got within 10 feet of the stump the bird was behind the Chocolate Lab Kona, ran past me and pounced on the bird and started eating the dang thing! From that moment in time I decided I need my own dog. By the way my bud who I was hunting with praised his dog for catching the bird. At least he didn't praise him for stealing our dinner too.
Anyways what are the opinions for training your own dog. I have the time and desire to do it myself. I probably lack the knowledge... Well I'm sure of that. Perhaps there are good books I can read up on? What are your thoughts?
Matt
|
|
|
Post by Maverick on Nov 10, 2007 21:49:29 GMT -5
Join a breed or hunt club that has top notch dogs and lots of off-season training/tune-up days. You will get a lot of free advice on training, what your dog needs to work on, and what you need to work on. Usually a lot of fun too.
Pete
|
|
wwy
Junior Hunter/worker
Posts: 24
|
Post by wwy on Nov 14, 2007 20:58:09 GMT -5
Matt The first thing I would say is this. And this may sound contrary to my leash question on the general board, but if a man is happy with his dog let him be happy, but I know your frustration. Secondly, the labrador retriever until recently was always considered a flushing breed. Recently many have decided to undo hundreds of years of breeding and produce a dog that can be trained to "stand point" which is very different than truely pointing to me but anyway. Most American bred flushing dogs have been bred to "flush hard" due to the desired traits in a trial. Often times unflighty birds are caught by a hard flushing keen dog. BUT, the dog should not have tried to eat the bird, you are correct. Often times however on marginally wounded birds, or live caught birds significant trauma is inflicted during the retrieve by the dog simply trying to hold the bird. If you have the desire and purchase a good breed for your ability, and purchase it from good stock you should easily come up with a flushing dog that you can gu birds over in a year, in my opinion. While Bob Wehle of the infamous Elhew pointer fame was a pointer man, his book "wing and shot" in my opinion is the bible on bird dog training. Read it and let it be the foundation, then cater your traing to a flusher or airedale or whatever you decide. NAVHDA also has a video (while catered to pointers) that shows some very applicable training to any type of hunting dog. Good luck. If you follow no ones advice remember this. "it takes birds to make a bird dog". A man I know always said if he could show a pup 100 coveys his first season HE WOULD have a phenominal dog in the end.
|
|
phil
Hunter/worker
Posts: 205
|
Post by phil on Nov 21, 2007 9:04:10 GMT -5
Matt Your question is a valid one. And the info that you have received in the preceding replys are excellent. That is the power of this and similar boards or groups. Heck it is the power of the information world we live in. I have to assume that you own and are hunting a "Dale", from your original thread I was not certain. Let me do a little fine tuning.... Bob Wehle's book "Wing and shot" is an excellent resource, however, the training of a Dale for sport and /or test requires more specifics into the development of the flushing/retreiver. As a resource I might suggest James Spencer's "Training the English Spaniel- The American Way". The core working job discription of pointing dogs is vastly different than that of the flushing/retreiver breeds.. Especially if you understand Wehle's background and the history behind his Elhew Kennel. As for books and/or video's you have to have em if you are SERIOUS about developing a world class shooting companion. Though in selves they are only reference guides...they will not do the work for you! Spencer's writings, and he still does contribute tto the "GUN DOG" magazine, addresses most of the issues in the flushing/retriever venue. Control, mouth,marking,and steadiness. Of which are the keys to having a sporting dog that works for you and not against you.
Joining a group of like minded dog folks is really a great one. And not as convient ar reading/watching a book/ video. finding a group that is low on bias toward a breed will be the biggest challenge. Understand I have conducted group training classes for all-breeds of sporting dogs for some 23 yrs now. and at least once week I have remind me clients that different strokes is what makes the world go round. Even with in venues..say pointing dogs and I'll use Nahvda as an example, the GSP and GWP rule the roost and really do give the Large Muensterlander folks a hard time.. Any way if you can find a flushing dog group and ease yourself into, it will give you a chance to see how performance issues are dealt with by the owner/handler. Usually you get a chance to see dogs that are performing at advance levels intermiadiate levels and pups being started.
Sending your dog off is not always a solution. An I have been in that business also some 28 yrs. The reason I say that it is not always a solution is the fact that I as a trainer can really only move your dog from point A to point B.. and the distance will vary greatly for each dog. Years ago I was building dogs that could work at say the Master level for their venue..if I was running the dog. In the hands of the owner it usually and always was a disaster..Unless the owner threw himself into the process of learning how to correctly handle the dog in many different situations in the field. That ment the owner & dog return to training classes on a weekly basis for at least 6 months.. Understand though I very rarely handle dogs in tests/trials, dogs and owners have.. of all breeds have qualified in over a 100 events . So there is treamendous power in the group training process. Finally all this being said your dogs performance in field will really get back to Your standards of a sporting dog. Standards are the one thing in this whole equation that is the toughest to define. It is a quality that no one can describe...you have to know it when you see it. It is not based on the number birds bagged or the hours that are expended in bagging a bird, but the quality of the situation that you and your dog find yourselves in at the moment...And did the dog respond to the situation that he has been conditoned for. If the dog did the job that you have prepared him for then you will be on your way to having a "good employee" vs an "independant sub-contractor" Bottom line it is really mind over matter, if you donot mind it does not matter.. The choice is really ours.. Have Fun!
Hal
|
|
AlexZ
Hunter/worker
Come a little closer...
Posts: 147
|
Post by AlexZ on Nov 21, 2007 11:46:05 GMT -5
Matt - one more thought, in addition to all others' suggestions. Not even an alternative, but more of a helpful addition... I have been training mine, but I do not have experience in training bird dogs for anything other than land retrieve (this is really all we do), that vastly improved after few pointers from Hal at HW Field Trials 2007 last spring. But I have been contemplating doing more, and more efficiently, spending less time researching and guessing, but more effective training and hunting... One of the members on the board suggested a train-a-trainer approach. I was referred to a local guy here who trains owners to train dogs. This type of approach might be a very good experience for you too...
I don't know where you are, but there might be a local guy that might do this too...
Good luck.
|
|
|
Post by steve on Nov 21, 2007 12:32:16 GMT -5
I'm a big fan of self-training, of course my methods may be lacking, when training for someone else. I use bonding as a basic and have found in many cases, dogs I have "trained" do not always respond to their owner when returned, to their full potential even using the same cues as I. But on responing to to the owner's complaint, find they will willingly jump through a ring of fire at my whim, just don't care to please anyone else.
|
|
|
Post by hicntry on Nov 21, 2007 22:47:41 GMT -5
That story hit home Steve. I used to break imported Muluccan Cockatoos for people for $150 bucks a bird. They are big birds and are very intimidating to the novice that just bought one of these gentle giants of the bird world. They are almost all bluff. I would call the people up and tell them their bird was ready and to come and get it. When they would arrive, I would take the bird out and the bird would do anything I wanted them to do. I then collected my money....because I knew the bird remembered the people and that they could not keep from pulling their arm out of the way. Upon the peoples approach to the cage, the bird would start hissing, throwing their war bonnet up and down, stomping one foot, and lunging at the people. People could not over come and hold their arm there even though I told them the bird is not going to bite them. They were afraid of the bird and the bird knew it. The bird had their number. I simply told them that it is too much bird for them. Now this is generally how these birds were, but, you do get a rogue now and then. That is why they brought them to me. When a bird stands about 18" and has a meat hook for a bill. they will leave a golf ball sized knot in your forearm for about 6 mo. They just crush every capilarry in your arm. It is the screwing with the dog prior to bringing him to you that was the main probelm. The dog knew they wouldn't make him do anything.
|
|
|
Post by gunzndawgz on Nov 27, 2007 23:31:26 GMT -5
As a resource I might suggest James Spencer's "Training the English Spaniel- The American Way". Phil I picked up the book. HUP Training Flushing Spanels The American Way. Thanks everyone for your comments. Matt
|
|
|
Post by Wolfer on Nov 28, 2007 3:00:55 GMT -5
One thing No one touched On..... you spend the time doint it yourself and when it clics in the field its pure Join. Now i have never had a store bought Dog but Im guessing it isn tthe same feeling as when you do it yourself
|
|
|
Post by IzzyHunter on Nov 28, 2007 10:14:44 GMT -5
I had the same question so thank you all so much for your great insight and experience!
|
|
AlexZ
Hunter/worker
Come a little closer...
Posts: 147
|
Post by AlexZ on Nov 28, 2007 13:45:35 GMT -5
Matt and "PinkAndPurple" - Don mentioned Jim Dobbs on another thread, and I mentioned his training "train-the-trainer" approach on this thread, but did not post a link. The summary of his seminars is online. Works really well. www.dobbsdogs.com/library/retrievers/BTW, it addresses most aspects of HW retriever tests... Hal - is this close to your approach/system? Good luck again!
|
|
phil
Hunter/worker
Posts: 205
|
Post by phil on Nov 28, 2007 14:36:19 GMT -5
Concerning Jim Dobbs. A big resounding yes!! 3 1/2 years ago when I met Maugh and Madonna, it was the only system that made any sense to me as a developmental technique for her then 3yr old Airedale. The dobbs concept dovetails so well with all breeds of sporting dogs. The situation concerning Madonna was at the age of 3yrs She had never had a bird in her mouth or had flushed a bird, in just a mere 24 months Madonna was able to qualify at the the Master level of both upland flushing and retriever. And literally leaving 99% of the rest of breed struggling at the Junior level. And those that qualify at the JH level or SH did so by their "dew claws". In other words just barely...so sad! Dobbs basic premise is this... Dogs are amoral creatures they do not know the difference between right and wrong they really only understand pleasure and discomfort.and through conditioning learn to "make" the right decision based on comfort or in other words stay away from actions that lead to discomfort... These same concepts are being used to develop Maugh's Gangster dog. who made the JH flushing test look like a walk in park. At this time he is well on his way to Make Master this spring at the age of 2 1/2 and skip the "goofy" Senior test al together..Personally I would have skipped Junior but his entry was needed to justify the test this past August..( Due to lack of interest in the hunting Airedale crowd) I digress.. Dobbs and the techniques he has developed for the upland flushing dogs is by far the best system to use. If you ever get chance to attend his workshops or actually go St.Mary California do not miss out. JIm, will tell you that the trained retrieve is fundamental and without you have an independant sub contractor living with you, his words not mine. Though I believe it 100%.. It is really the foundation of my whole business...No trained retrieve, you got a swamp collie. Now more than ever this breed needs people that are going to move their dogs forward, istead of maintaining the staus quo.. The trained retrieve is the only way you can move a dog's skill level forward... without it you will moving in reverse.. I witness this fact this past August in the dogs that failed to repeat at test levels that had been Q"d six months previous..
Hal
|
|
AlexZ
Hunter/worker
Come a little closer...
Posts: 147
|
Post by AlexZ on Nov 28, 2007 15:32:43 GMT -5
Thanks, Hal!
Trained retrieve sounds like a behavior pattern building exercise. It's not about retrieve, necessarily, but about dog figuring out the comfort/displeasure system...
Can you expand on the definition of "swamp collie"? LOL
|
|
phil
Hunter/worker
Posts: 205
|
Post by phil on Nov 28, 2007 17:08:33 GMT -5
Ah, the ever loved "Swamp collie" They can be of any breed or ilk. Lord knows I have shot 1000's of birds over what I refer to as a swamp collie'. Though the most satisfying shooting that done were over dogs that knew their job and did it with proper manners If you recall one of my basic under pinnings of training a dog for sport is that simple phrase "mind over mater" if I or you don't mind it is does not matter...Literally 1000 and 1000's of hunting dogs fall in this category and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Sometimes the swamp collie produces a bird within gun range and somtimes they do not Sometimes.. a swamp collie is coming back on a retrieve oh oh another bird is produced and distracts the SWCOLlie from finishing the first retrieve and then chases the 2nd bird thats OK that why we call it hunting.. or SC is coming back with only the 2nd bird of the day and it's a cripple and the handler is coaxing the SC in... he drops the bird short of the handler and the bird fearing for life and limb runs off with SC in hot pursuit a 30 minute search for a bird that should have been in hand oh well.. Swamp collie's are just fine on a days hunt you just gotta laugh..however when we run under test standards with judges and gallery we better have I's cross and our T's dotted.. Training to standards is really what I was referring to and those standards may not be our standards but those that have gone before us.. In my own breed field bred springers that goes back some 125 years of what the Brits refer to as proper dog work. If dogs are trained to standards then being a SC is not an option why because the Standards must be maintained. Or dogs do not progress in their work. Personally I think it is a concept that is difficult for people to put their arms around when they are in involved in Pass/Fail events or evaluations..Once you enter the world of winner takes all it becomes very cyrstal clear. In my own practice I have a terrible challenge in motivating handlers that are in the test venues only, whether they be flushing,retriever or pointing dog. However once that handler decides to compete for a breed championship, their standards for their dog, change dramatically. Swamp collies are and can be a lot of fun. Another term i like to use for them is "shits and giggles" dogs To extend that thought process Do you think I would to breed a known swamp collie or would want a pup out a swamp collie breeding .NO WAY! Thats when the LOL and S & G's comes to end I would draw the line on that.. I'm wound fairly tight on this subject especially on Weds.. My Wed class is very challenging to in the motivation process. Many times I get the feeling it is about just letting their dogs have fun.. Remember dags are amoral if they can get away with it without force they will..now they are on their way to becoming a "beloved swamp collie"
Hal Kind of rushed at this time please excuse spelling and punct.
|
|
|
Post by ed on Nov 28, 2007 17:57:31 GMT -5
"To extend that thought process Do you think I would to breed a known swamp collie or would want a pup out a swamp collie breeding .NO WAY! Thats when the LOL and S & G's comes to end I would draw the line on that."
Hal I'm not sure I get the above quote. particularly in light of the explanation of a swamp collie.
"Sometimes the swamp collie produces a bird within gun range and somtimes they do not Sometimes.. a swamp collie is coming back on a retrieve oh oh another bird is produced and distracts the SWCOLlie from finishing the first retrieve and then chases the 2nd bird thats OK that why we call it hunting.. or SC is coming back with only the 2nd bird of the day and it's a cripple and the handler is coaxing the SC in... he drops the bird short of the handler and the bird fearing for life and limb runs off with SC in hot pursuit a 30 minute search for a bird that should have been in hand oh well.. "
This is an example of incomplete or faulty training ..........not breeding.
|
|