|
Post by hicntry on Dec 10, 2007 18:55:20 GMT -5
"As for busting my chops big guy, your built for comfort not speed!! LOL""
That's a fact Hal. You just let my most coveted secret out as to why I have those long legged stagdales. They do my running and taking care of the light work. I just walk in and do the clean up.
|
|
wwy
Junior Hunter/worker
Posts: 24
|
Post by wwy on Dec 10, 2007 21:49:36 GMT -5
IMHO dogs that are bred well, and or, have a great amount of natural ability require the least amount of training to put game in the game bag regardless of quarry. Aditionally, this "higher" level of training that Hall talks about can be very helpful at least to a point in many situations, such as one gundog in a blind with 5 gunners. Advanced training can also make a hunt more enjoyable in some settings. However, I feel that some tests have stressed these arbitrary drills so heavily that "field trail" breeders and the tests they breed for have created more naturally cooperative dogs but they have taken away from a dogs ability to hunt. This is also exacirbated by the fact that there is always a winner and always a looser. This means people breed for tested qualities to the "nth" degree. Just like show breeding. "Well setters are really pretty with a long coat so lets breed it longer" "Shepards move good with a low hip so lets breed really low hips" after time you get people that breed for certain elements that have no regard to a dogs intended function, you have dogs that stumble on their coat and need hips replaced at one year of age. To ask a dog to swim across water (buring energy and wasting time) to retrieve a bird laying just off of a bank as advanced AKC and UKC tests ask retrievers to do is one such example. And many other scenarios in these tests are the same. To breed a dog that will swim a straight line 10 feet off the bank in my mind goes as far as breeding a dogs natural hunting ability out and only stresses a dogs obedience. If I have to choose between my dog retrieving a winged goose in an ice fringed lake at 200 yards or a dog that is bred to listen and take a line. I'll take my dog any day because he is bred to hunt, he wants to hunt, and he wants that bird period and will die trying to retrieve it. As to the bashing of NAVHDA and misinformation presented earlier those interested should look at NAVHDA's website. In my opinion NAVHDA and NSTRA are one of the only current day tests that are worth their salt as far as bird dogs go. As to the natural ability test, it is intended to determine a dogs instinctive ability, it is encouraged by the asociation to test dogs for this as early as possible. Many of the better breeders are testing dogs at a very young age for this as well as the utility test. Show me a Prize 1 utility dog and I will show you a dog you can enjoyably shoot birds over. Show me a MH and it may or may not be a dog you can shoot A wild bird over. Period. I have seen them both. As far as number of dogs with prizes in NAVHDA I am not sure what you are reffering to Hal. There is an updated list of all tests on the NAVHDA site with thousands of tested and prized dogs. I strongly believe that a very naturally talented dog can pass the utility tests with a little training, and a decent dog can pass the utility with a good amount of training. Both very important qualities. As to the Versatille Champion test I think a dog has to have very good inherent abilities and a very good amount of training. None of the NAVHDA tests require a dog to hunt fur but provide that option to the tester is so requested. My dog is not a NAVHDA tested dog due to my time constraints and monetary constraints when he was young, but he was bred with hunting and this type of assesment in mind. He will not make straight line retrieves on blinds, he will run the bank, he shakes uncontrolably in the blind, but due to the foresight of his breeder he hunts his ass off, never quits, learns skills I desire to teach him readily as long as they aren't strongly against a hunting dogs nature, points and retrieves hundreds of wild birds a year, and as an added bonus he will chew a bears ass if they decide they need to run elsewhere. He also sleeps at the foot of the bed and pisses on my tires.
|
|
|
Post by Maverick on Dec 11, 2007 0:02:33 GMT -5
I feel that some tests have stressed these arbitrary drills so heavily that "field trail" breeders and the tests they breed for have created more naturally cooperative dogs but they have taken away from a dogs ability to hunt. Now there is an idea I can agree with almost 100%! I would be in 100% agreement if you replaced the word "cooperative" with "obedient and dependent" as I like a cooperative hunting dog with desire, drive, and smarts. I think it is more of a case of needing to pick a winner when multiple dogs are functionally equivalent. Then how do you pick? Style, looks, level of training, etc. That is the one thing that turned me off of AKC retriever trials from the very beginning! Watched about half of one decades ago, and swore off them completely right then-and-there. Ed had a post months ago about a Chessy(?) and Briscoe (his Airedale) retrieving from water. Briscoe was sucking water in the Chessy's wake, aggravating Briscoe to no end. When the dummy fell near a point, Briscoe ran the bank out to the point to finally beat the Chessy to the dummy and gleefully returned it to hand. Ed was too busy laughing to correct Briscoe, but I was cheering for Briscoe all the way! I would take Briscoe over the either well trained or dumbass Chessy anytime! A situation where a good Airedale should out perform any fair weather Lab/Golden/etc., and only bow to a good hard Chessy! My kinda dog!!! (except for shaking uncontrollably ) Pete
|
|
|
Post by ed on Dec 11, 2007 20:59:51 GMT -5
What was even worse about Brisco sucking water behind the Chessie was tthat it was my son's Chessie! On a more serious note i think there is always a tension between instinct drive and training. This is heightened by trials and tests. In protection sports the truly tough hard driving no back up dog is at a disadvantage. Why because only a modocum of hardness is required in sport that is emulating real protection work. The obedience component of protection separates the winners from the losers. What do the judges look at after basic bite work is done. They grade precision and handler control. Does the dog bump the bad guy when he is guarding him. He shouldn't but the bad boys do . They want to get it on.. Does the dog heel like he is doing AKC obedience as walks behind or along side the bad guy. The drivy dog is forging he wants to get the guy. Hopes he will do something that will start the fight again. Soft dog looks good ,it is precise stylish attentive to the handler. What else counts for a high score.
Will the dog out instantly(let go) during a fight with no resistance.The softer sporty dog does these things easily. When heeling the bada$$ doesn't really much care about if his shoulder is even with your knee as he follows the bad guy. You can make him be aware and he will do it but in the process you take something from the dog....If you start with softer more compliant dogs you don't have to work so hard. You can get high scores get stud fees and establish a line of high scoring dogs but what what do you really end up with? Don't get me wrong I beieve in training and the assistance and mentoring of good trainers. But what the dog's got he's got.
|
|
|
Post by Summit Forge on Dec 12, 2007 13:05:48 GMT -5
The way I see it.
If one is happy with the way their Airedale hunts with and for them, no outside trainer is needed. If not, they will need to find a knowledgeable person who hunts the same game in the areas they hunt to show them how to train their Airedale or train the dog for them and show them how to handle the dog.
If one wants to play and be successful in the hunt test game beyond the Junior level, one will need someone to show them how to train their Airedale for hunt tests or train their dog and show them how to handle the dog in hunt tests.
Ron
|
|
phil
Hunter/worker
Posts: 205
|
Post by phil on Dec 12, 2007 16:21:57 GMT -5
Ron, Good show "Mind over matter" for hunting dogs I agree completely. However if you are going to impact the breed and show the world what an Airedale can do, you best have your act together. You and your great Forge dog have been there you know what you are talking about..
Hal
|
|