wayne
Junior Hunter/worker
Posts: 34
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Post by wayne on Aug 15, 2010 17:46:52 GMT -5
All, Re: Recent Master Hunter Title earned by an Airedale From your experiences and knowledge of this competitive field trial / hunt test community. I wonder how many dogs that enter these trails or tests actually hunt. My impression fom the limited exposure that I have had from this "culture" seems to indicate to me that not to many actually go out and hunt. It seems to be all about the competition, scoring points, getting together with a bunch of like minded people, etc.
I know that you've probably beat this to death. BUT, in your opinion, what is the difference between other breeds and Airedale's when it comes to retrieving?
That reason is partially why I went out to the 2 different venues to observe to see for myself why more Airedales are not being used for this purpose.
At the Jr and Sr stages at least (Jr/Sr Hunt and Field Tests) I didn't see anything that these dogs were doing that my Airedale, Katie, either isn't doing now or will be doing shortly after she has more experience in this area.
What is it, in your opinion, that sets labs, goldens etc apart from Airedales when it comes to retrieving in the water or on land?
I know that Airedales could not compete in these tests/trials until recently.
I just don't understand it. From what I've read, Airedales have the drive, determination, smarts, and stick to itness to succeed. Why the negatives?
Wayne
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Post by ed on Aug 15, 2010 21:18:34 GMT -5
Wayne look at your question in a broader context...how many do anything with an Airedale?
"The AKC reports that about 120 Airedales attain an AKC championship each year, which is about 2% of the Airedale population. Roughly 20 Airedales obtain a CD obedience title, 8 get a CDX, and 3 get a UD each year. Roughly, two get tracking titles, and 10 get novice agility titles. If we compare these statistics to other terriers, the numbers are similar to American Staffordshire Terriers, but behind Miniature Schnauzers and Jack Russell Terriers....."
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Post by zulu on Aug 16, 2010 8:45:01 GMT -5
in your opinion, what is the difference between other breeds and Airedale's when it comes to retrieving? for 145 generations, all the best field trial retriever dogs have been bred to all the best field trial retriever bitches, and naturally this produces even better field trial retriever pups books.google.com/books?id=Kd8NAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=kennel+club+stud+book&lr=&as_brr=1#v=onepage&q&f=false for me, it all comes down to the question of utility if you want to compete in high level retriever trials, get a labrador if you want to compete in high level protection trials, get a malinois if you want to compete in high level herding trials, get a border collie but before you do, understand such specialization comes at a price if you want a real working dog for real life in the real world, get an airedale he is the most useful dog I've ever known
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Post by hicntry on Aug 17, 2010 22:14:32 GMT -5
Wayne, the simplest answer I can give is that nobody I know breeds airedales specifically for retrieving. Labs and other retrieving breeds are bred for the job and have been for years. Being as the dales are not specifically bred for retrieving means you got a job on your hands. It is my understanding that the biggest reason for failure in water retrieving is that the dales won't get in the water....but those are dogs that have no business competing anyway. They need to be selectively bred for the love of water and high drive to start with.
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Post by maugh on Aug 18, 2010 5:11:45 GMT -5
Don, that's it. It's the breeding, not the breed in all cases. Ironically, the Airedale was originally a water dog among other things. But show and pet breeding have taken that out of most Amerian Airedales. And don't forget that the retrievers you see at the retriever tests are not the ones you see in the obedience and show rings for the most part. HRC has its own breeding program as to the field trial lab people. They are fortunate to have large enough gene pools that they can do that. So the numbers are enough to prevent the ruination of the entire breed by the show people and the dabblers. Ed gave us numbers about numbers of working dogs and it's worth going back and looking at that post. There is a lab field trial this weekend nearby and there are 72 dogs entered in the open class. One dog will win. Three dogs will accumulate points towards their field trial championship. The winner will accumulate 5 points. You need 10. All of these dogs can flawlessly do a blind triple land-water-land or whatever. There will be at least 700 black labs throughout the country that will earn field trial championships this year in spite of their odds. Of these, about 300 will qualify to compete in the nationals. This year. And think about how many lab puppies were born this year destined to be pets and show dogs! The percentage of working labs is a very small percentage too. Airedales will have an MH maybe every three or four years if luck prevails. They will not be attained by hard core working dog people but most likely by dabblers. Breeders will not choose them for breeding but will go back to their comfort zones. Airedale breeders largely are not yet convinced that it takes special breeding to have dogs perform at high levels. It requires establishing working lines. It requires dropping the conformation baggage about static standards and establishing some performance-oriented ones. Regards, Maugh
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wayne
Junior Hunter/worker
Posts: 34
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Post by wayne on Aug 18, 2010 7:16:22 GMT -5
All, Thanks for the explanations. From what little I know and little that I've seen the explanations given seem to fit.
Katie and I will continue to play around at the retrieving game (water and land) and see where it leads us both. At least attempting to get ready for a CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) sanctioned event gives me a direction in the training area or is it arena?
Wayne
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Post by Summit Forge on Aug 18, 2010 9:57:49 GMT -5
If your Airedale has the drive, likes water and "wants" the training, your biggest hurdle for your ADT will be marking a fall. Although Airedales certainly do see fairly well when movement is involved, marking an object on land or water that is not moving is a specialized behavior that has been bred into the top retrievers.
The degree to which you will be able to handle your ADT to a mark depends on which organization and rules you choose to compete under. AKC field trials are the most stringent with hunt tests being less stringent. Each org. has a slightly different philosophy.
Good Luck. Ron
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Post by zulu on Aug 18, 2010 11:32:57 GMT -5
this is what airedales looked like, back when they were water dogs before the coveted catfoot & modern showtype newbold test played a pivotal role in the development of the breed Wayne, I'm rooting for you & Katie 110% !!!
please keep us posted
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Post by Summit Forge on Aug 18, 2010 20:30:07 GMT -5
Alright Dave.
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Post by callmerico on Jul 22, 2011 19:50:04 GMT -5
Its been a year...any HRC Retreiving titles on your dog?
The titles are not easy. I know because Ive competed in it, and titled dogs in them. Watching a well bred trial Lab is a thing of beauty and is unmatched in retrieving dogdom.
I hate to say this, but I hear alot of talk about dales versatility from their owners, but mostly its talk. I dont see titles to back any of the 'theyre versatile dogs' competing in venues like HRC which is open to Dales, as are other venues.
Labradors lead the blind and are service dogs, sniff out drugs and mines, some are Schutzhund titled, are used by more upland and waterfowl hunters in America than any other breed, and are a popular pet.
Same goes for Malinois, Cat Curs, Drahthaars and German Shorthairs-all extremely versatile dogs in their own right, having competed against all breeds in many venues from retrieving to Herding to SCHh, to hog bay, to Navhda and everything in between.
If your breed club wants credibility, it takes less whining and more doing.
I look forward to seeing titles on Airedales, but its not obedience or UD titles I want to see. Its Working Titles in UKC-HRC, Schutzhund (or Protection Sports), Treeing contests, Blood Tracking, Hog Bay Dogging, and see them hold their own.
I say..... DO now, or forever hold your peace.
You want respect, you have to earn it and breed for it, Other breeds and clubs are getting it done and arent making false claims of what they can do while sitting on the sidelines.
The Dale has lived off an old reputation for a long time, but in recent decades has been eclipsed in all venues it once shined in as a performer.
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Post by rickyjames on Jul 24, 2011 10:41:57 GMT -5
i think most people that own airedales own them because they love the breed. most of the people i have met that do any type of k-9 competition choose the breed of dog based on the competition. an example, mals are the hot breed in any protection sport. if you plan on winning you will get a well bred mal from parents proven in the sport. other breeds are at an immediate disadvantage when competing by judges predjudiced towards mals. a man i knew had a rottie, the most well trained dog of any breed i have ever seen. while he kept the rottie he bought a mal for competition. i'm sure the same applies to any dog sport, it is not enough to buy a lab for competition, if you want to compete you need a dog from proven lines, it is not as easy as just buying any lab.
secondly, there are alot of airedale owners that train their dogs to a level that pleases them but not for competition. there are plenty of airedales that do birdwork to a level that suited their handler, nothing else is needed. you don't need an obedience title to have a well trained dog, if your airedale trees enough coon to make you happy then you don't really need to enter water races. these are not excuses just the reality of everyday dog owners only interested in a good dog and not competition.
can airedales compete against other breeds in various sports? some can. while i think many airedales can title in various dog sports if the owner puts in the time and effort it is hard to place higher in a sport than the breed that was designed for it. or should i say the test was designed for a particular breed. no matter what breed you choose to compete with there is only 1 winner, the rest are just also rans. does that make the also rans lesser dogs? only if being number 1 means more to you than being a dog owner. even if they are all mals, or labs or whater ever is the hot breed for your sport only 1 dog will win top honors.
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Post by callmerico on Jul 24, 2011 15:31:37 GMT -5
Love has nothing to do with Proving work ability via Titles, what your dog can do and on par with other breeds. Mals are popular for FR, PSA and Ring sports, but not more popular than German shepherds for Schutzhund, IPO or ZVV (Czech testing) Other breeds simply cant work LIKE a Mal. Its not judges being prejudiced, its reaction time and speed where the Mal, Dutchies and some GSDs excel. A dog from the lines one wishes to compete in or work in makes sense. Rotts are decent defense dogs, but at a disadvantage in field protection sports when compared to herding breeds. Hog Baying, Blood Tracking, SchH, HRCat intermediate levels, is not highest level work necessarily. All of it has real world application even at such levels. Yours sounds like an excuse.. Most titles are centered around real world settings, please no more excuses. I have titles in 3 venues. WHy cant an Airedale perform alongside a Lab or spaniel in a Field test? What is so hard about quartering quickly and then Hup at flush? Marking and retrieving? Most dales Ive seen work was worse than watching paint dry. Id like to own one, but am not impressed thus far with anything Ive seen, in person or video. , No, but if youre dog is well trained, why not put a title on him? Maybe the dog chokes under pressure or when being judged around other dogs and people under distraction? Water races has nothing to do with treeing coons..with its otterhoud background a dale should be a decent coon dog but Ive never seen or heard of one outhunting any good hounds or Jagds. You answered my question. Most airedales cannot compete with other dogs, even those that are not specialists in most venues. They require alot of patience, a special trainer and alot of excedrin aspirin. Some one once said they could train and title 3 German Shepherds inthe time it took to title one Dale in SchH. I imagine this is true. Yet , I know decent ADs exist in Germany for this work with the right breedings. Making it in the Top 10% is noteworthy. No one expects them TO win, so there is no pressure. Is there just 1 Airedale in AMerica with a UKC- HRC title? A Blood Tracking Title? A Hog Bay titles? A Coon Treeing title? See what I mean? Other breeds have such titles and can be cross trained and titled-Labs, Cat Curs, Drahthaars, Kurzhaars and Malinois all have multiple titles in various non related venues. Ive yet to see orhear of an Airedale, but I hear alot of excuses and talk from their owners. Its sad really. Less talk and more action would really be nice.
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Post by rickyjames on Jul 24, 2011 17:09:26 GMT -5
do you know what is smaller than the ratio of airedales in dog sports? the answer is the number of people that do dog sports. with 300 plus million americans, what percentage of that number do dog sports? maybe the problem isn't the breeds, it is just the lack of interest.
america has millions of gun owners that love to hunt and shoot. what percentage of them compete in gun sports? being able to get s deer or hit s bullseye or protect themself is enough for them. they expend alot more ammunition than all the gun sports so they are active and happy with what they do. they dont need a trophy.
using your logic no one can truely shoot unless the gun and shooter compete in a gun sport, no one can drive or have a good car unless they race them and no one can have a decently trained dog unless they compete in a dog sport.
why should dog owners be any different than gun owners or car owners? obviously you are into dog sports and use them as a guage to measure breeds. the percentage of any breed competing in any dog sport is tiny and yet there are untitled dogs and breeds that guard or herd or hunt or protect or go about their everyday duties, whatever they are with no complints from their owners.
btw, i am not anti dog sports, i just look at things more realistic.
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Post by callmerico on Jul 24, 2011 21:22:43 GMT -5
Even a small percentage of Dog trial enthusiasts of 300 million people, is ALOT of people with dogs. Hunt tests are always well attended..no shortage of enthusiasts in my experience in 3 venues.
Again, I dont understand your point...Sorry
Some people Talk and some dog owners DO, thats the difference. In the entire history of the Airedale breed, I dont think there is 1 titled in UKC HRC.
The AD folks bitched about not being able to run, they get approval and no titles in years since being allowed.
The tests are large and welcoming. The last I ran, had 38 dogs in the Seasoned class, lots of room for many dogs-I saw Labs, Chessies, Goldens, Drahthaars, Nova Scotia Dog and a Poodle. All got titles and all have been titled at the highest level.
The tests dont lie generally. A title does to those who DID the work. It may not tell the whole picture, but it gives the results. I look for drive and heart in addition to titles. I also look for cooperation. I dont mind a dog failing, but no one with the AD breed is even trying, there is a reason why. No one breeds this breed TO work in this country, save a handful of fur hunters who run their dogs in mixed packs, but that number is probably less than 5 across all of America.
The best ones in the breed, at some point, get recognized BY others doing work and titling in Hunt or work sport. That is a fact. Its not that hard. It takes some gas money, entrance fee and some training to say I DID IT. The breed did it. No one is saying beat them all, just 90% would be meritous.
I am not a sport person. I train for real life hunting situations.
HRC features marking, blinds, line manners, water and land retrieves for duck hunting, everything but a cripple test that was recently abolished. It takes the right dog, time and good training to excel at the high levels and title.
All breeds are accepted, but no ADs run. Nor do any Blood tracking work, Nor Herding, nor Hog Baying. Why are all of these venues featuring other Versatile dogs?
Again, I hear talk, but I see no action, no results. Dont kid yourself. We both know why.
Im not talking Protection sports, which would be great too. Alot more folks hunt and yet in these venues, tracking, baying, herding, treeing, there are NO ADs.
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Post by hicntry on Jul 25, 2011 7:02:55 GMT -5
To some, titles means everything, to others they mean nothing. 99% of the doigs doing bitesports wouldn't protect anyone off the field on their best day. They yhave been bred and trained to do what they do andmhave to be rewarded to do it. They work for the reward. A lot of FT dogs do FT but don't/can't hunt. Many feel a VDD test is a title, but it is just a breed qualification test.
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