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Post by rickyjames on Jul 25, 2011 9:53:49 GMT -5
don is correct...sorta. dog sports (hunting/protection) have largely gone the way of dog conformation shows. a large percentage, not 99% but certainly 50% or more of "winning" dogs are not very good in the actual application of whatever their specialty is and that is the ugly truth.
winning in dog sports requires dogs to be trained for the sport. real world application is put aside. short cuts are taken and dogs are always set up to win. in protection sports the sad truth is many dogs won't react as they do on the field unless the bad guy is wearing a sleeve. the little love taps (mostly just noise) would be replaced with actual pain and when the dog realizes a real bad guy isn't wearing a sleeve, isn't going to just let them win and there is alot of pain involved, the dogs just fold.
i trained 3 dogs in protection, 1 boxer and 2 airedales. the boxer and first airedale did well and had fun with the "sporting" aspect of it. would they protect me in real life? i think so but i don't know if they would stand real presure. my second airedale (bigger and stronger than the first) did not play the game. he was deadly serious. he didn't care for or watch the sleeve, he would not bark or growl much, he would watch the helpers eyes and when he had an oppertunity he would go for the throat. no one wanted to work with him, he was proclaimed too "civil" for the sport. of the 3 dogs i worked with he was the most likely to actually protect. i found some french ring people with a full bite suit and worked him with them when i could but schutzund people wanted nothing to do with him even tho he was the real deal.
i understand the same thing happens in hunting sports. the dogs are trained to win in the sport. shortcuts are taken and training is focused on winning the sport. many of the same dogs that win trials do not take that same high level of effectivness to the field.
sports are fun, a well trained dog is a joy to watch but a good sport dog and one that can preform well in real life are not always one and the same, and that is the real truth about dog sports.
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Post by kwilliams on Jul 25, 2011 9:55:43 GMT -5
To some, titles means everything, to others they mean nothing. 99% of the doigs doing bitesports wouldn't protect anyone off the field on their best day. They yhave been bred and trained to do what they do andmhave to be rewarded to do it. They work for the reward. A lot of FT dogs do FT but don't/can't hunt. Many feel a VDD test is a title, but it is just a breed qualification test. Schutzhund only in the last few decades became a Sport,. and as a result, the GSD breed has been watered down into 2 lines-Working and Showline. Prior to that time becoming a SPORT, it was a Police and Breeding Certification and had Real Stick hits, bite suit, scaled walled jumps etc ie Real Life Application for working and breeding evaluation. KNPV Still IS a Police Cert. PSA features a hidden bite sleeve, if a dog wont bite it will be on a hidden sleeve. Sorry but I disagree with you that 99% of trained Protection even sport dogs wont bite. It requires little cross training. However, SchH features Showline dogs, With Working dogs, and the money is in Showline dogs, per the US consumer. But there are still plenty of hard and real dogs in Germany and the Czech Republic. Some field trials are run on Wild Birds (Cover dogTrials) exclusively and I promise you these dogs will hunt. Are you saying field trialed and titled Labradors and Springers wont hunt? I think, rather KNOW, that is absurd. Same with German VDD JGHV FCI tests, they are run ON Wild Game (in Germany Exclusively), and pen raised birds are used only in the USA, if wild bird is not present. A dog cannot HUNT without this title in that country. Difference here is that All VDD tests (USA) do feature wild game at every test-either hare, rabbit for Tracking, duck, pheasant or quail, and pen raised if wild birds are not present, which is what I saw when I attended a test. The Kurzhaars and Drahthaars Ive been around were amazing dogs for the most part and the public likes what is being produced. Titlling is no tthat far off from real work. In fact in HRC-UKC-its called a HUNT TEST, and simulates real duck hunting with Lining, marking, doubles, triples, manners, field and water retriever. Sorry, I disagree with much of what is put out here. It takes more than talk to make claims..
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Post by kwilliams on Jul 25, 2011 10:03:05 GMT -5
don is correct...sorta. dog sports (hunting/protection) have largely gone the way of dog conformation shows. a large percentage, not 99% but certainly 50% or more of "winning" dogs are not very good in the actual application of whatever their specialty is and that is the ugly truth. winning in dog sports requires dogs to be trained for the sport. real world application is put aside. short cuts are taken and dogs are always set up to win. in protection sports the sad truth is many dogs won't react as they do on the field unless the bad guy is wearing a sleeve. the little love taps (mostly just noise) would be replaced with actual pain and when the dog realizes a real bad guy isn't wearing a sleeve, isn't going to just let them win and there is alot of pain involved, the dogs just fold. i trained 3 dogs in protection, 1 boxer and 2 airedales. the boxer and first airedale did well and had fun with the "sporting" aspect of it. would they protect me in real life? i think so but i don't know if they would stand real presure. my second airedale (bigger and stronger than the first) did not play the game. he was deadly serious. he didn't care for or watch the sleeve, he would not bark or growl much, he would watch the helpers eyes and when he had an oppertunity he would go for the throat. no one wanted to work with him, he was proclaimed too "civil" for the sport. of the 3 dogs i worked with he was the most likely to actually protect. i found some french ring people with a full bite suit and worked him with them when i could but schutzund people wanted nothing to do with him even tho he was the real deal. i understand the same thing happens in hunting sports. the dogs are trained to win in the sport. shortcuts are taken and training is focused on winning the sport. many of the same dogs that win trials do not take that same high level of effectivness to the field. sports are fun, a well trained dog is a joy to watch but a good sport dog and one that can preform well in real life are not always one and the same, and that is the real truth about dog sports. I think its a weak argument to say that all testing and titling is worthless, therefore we wont prove our dogs with other breeds. For every dog that hasnt been trained to bite for real, there is one that has. Its all in the training and breeding, there are plenty of real dogs that will bite and fight in KNPV, SchH, PSA, IPO, ZVV, Mondio and French Ring. Most US police and military dogs Still come FROM these lines directly. Note: I have seen 2 Airedales run off the field, one was the highest placing SchH AD in America. So is this a reason that more are not seen working for such titles here? Guys, excuses are for losers. Winners get out and DO. Titling and working dogs in the venue one trains in is not that hard.
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Post by kwilliams on Jul 25, 2011 10:07:10 GMT -5
Many feel a VDD test is a title, but it is just a breed qualification test. Correction, Highcountry. In Europe, a VDD title is a requirement for a dog to be CERTIFIED TO Hunt game. It IS the Law, and a legal requirement. A trained and titled dog. The Dog must have proven its merit on live and dead game (tracking) in testing, and is a requirement TO hunt, especially in germany and austria. No title = no hunt. SchH used to be the same in Germany, before becoming strictly a Sport. KNPV still IS the same, a Working POLICE Certification. Every one of those dogs will bite but go through another 2 weeks after KNPV cert, for Street Police work. I would like to see more Airedales, competing with other breeds, in other venues and performing well. Breeders must strive at a consensus of what is important for the breed to be a working breed.
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Post by rickyjames on Jul 25, 2011 11:31:17 GMT -5
"For every dog that hasnt been trained to bite for real, there is one that has." there ya go, you just verified my 50% statement. "Titling and working dogs in the venue one trains in is not that hard." unfortunatly this is all to true. many titled dogs won't actually do the work they were titled for when push comes to shove outside the ring. "Guys, excuses are for losers. Winners get out and DO." very metaphorical and true. in sports there are winners and losers. in life there are just survivors. you act as if i am against dog sports. i am not. all i am saying is the percentage of dogs that are sucessful in a given sport is not 100% relative to real life. as you yourself stated it might be closer to 50%. does this mean dog sports are usless and people should avoid them? absolutly not. dog sports are fun, they create a stronger bond between you and your dog, they create better behaved dogs but they are not the end all be all of whatever the venue is. again let me be clear, i am all for dog sports for those interested. all i am saying is winning on a field is not always the same as winning in the field. i think that beats this subject to death
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Post by hicntry on Jul 26, 2011 0:27:45 GMT -5
I wasn't aware that German hunt terriers were VDD certified. I may be wrong but I don't think they are but they are used to hunt in Germany. Also, a lot of dogs that do field trials don't hunt. Go to a hound trial. Many of them have greyhound bred in for speed in swimming and on land simply so they cross the finish line first.....but they don't hunt.....they have been bred specifically for the game. Lots of bird dogs are in the same class because ranging out 400 and 500 yards and having to chase the dogs down on horseback isn't exactly what most would consider a good field dog. Guess you will just have to disagree.
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Post by kwilliams on Jul 26, 2011 8:42:15 GMT -5
The VDD is a breed club, as is the VPP, VDK etc They are all under the auspices of the JGHV, the umbrella organization, including the Jagd terrier and Teckels. Alot more DO, than dont. We arent talking about Swimming races, but hunting. You talking extremes, but on the praries or Western country, sometimes range can be an advantage. Every one of these dogs, will find and point birds, They HAVE to to win a trial, or place in it.
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Post by ed on Jul 26, 2011 12:08:02 GMT -5
Interesting discussion,just wanted to point out that at Hunting Working National in September there will be a great helper available to work or test any Airedale for Sport. Dave is particularly good with young dogs. Theories and opinions abound but nothing beats working your dog. Hope to see Board members out there.Real good retrieving help also available as well as first run of Natural ability ( Ala NAHDA) hunting test.
Check out the site...hope you can make it.
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Post by kwilliams on Jul 26, 2011 13:53:25 GMT -5
Interesting discussion,just wanted to point out that at Hunting Working National in September there will be a great helper available to work or test any Airedale for Sport. Dave is particularly good with young dogs. Theories and opinions abound but nothing beats working your dog. Hope to see Board members out there.Real good retrieving help also available as well as first run of Natural ability ( Ala NAHDA) hunting test. Check out the site...hope you can make it. Ed, I am of the opinion, that there should be a MINIMUM breed standard for working and hunting breeds, based on some sort of title recognition, used AS a minimum TO Breed. The breed clubs in Europe have it right all along, imo. For Airedales, I would propose one of two venue titles for breeding minimums, and this would also include mandatory HIP testing/screening: 1. SchH titles for both, with at least one parent SchH2 titled. (PSA could be substituted for PSA 1 min., if no SchH club is in close proximity) 2. UKC HRC Title-with one parent HRCH Finished, AND either an Upland Field test OR Tracking title-(either blood or coon)- 600 meter min). Dogs will evolve into Working and Hunting lines but that is fine. The WORK will remain in them. It woul;d weed out 90% of the dogs out there presently. Titles get my attention and are a starting point. No titles, I will not even bother to look..talk is cheap. Too many GOOD dogs and breeders out there Doing.
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Post by hicntry on Jul 26, 2011 22:36:00 GMT -5
Bill, out of the hundreds of pictures of dogs working you posted on other boards, mainly DD's, none were pictures of your dog. The only picture of your dog was laying on the floor sleeping soundly.
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Post by kwilliams on Jul 27, 2011 8:15:09 GMT -5
Bill, out of the hundreds of pictures of dogs working you posted on other boards, mainly DD's, none were pictures of your dog. The only picture of your dog was laying on the floor sleeping soundly. Pictures have nothing to do with this discussion. The issue is .. Do you think titling dogs as proof of minimum standards including hip screening i boths respectable and necessary for the safekeeping of the breeds work ability?
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Post by thistlesdale on Jul 27, 2011 11:59:50 GMT -5
I certainly don't IMO hip screens are only used to justify/rationalize breeding more bad hips as far as I'm concerned, if you want a lab or a mal or a pointer, you should get one; but, if somebody wants to breed a line of mal in AT's clothing or whatever, it's ok by me; just don't expect me to buy your culls
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Post by thistlesdale on Jul 27, 2011 12:09:44 GMT -5
anybody want to come get wild bunch hondo for HWN? he's only 3/4 AT so I doubt he'd reproduce himself; but I GUARANTEE he'll jump into an erupting volcano after a tennis ball prey drive is off the charts
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Post by kwilliams on Jul 27, 2011 16:46:06 GMT -5
\'I certainly don\'t IMO hip screens are only used to justify/rationalize breeding more bad hips\' Im glad youre not a breeder. What you said makes absolutely NO Sense. Airedales ARE subject to Hip dysplasia, and AD Rescue admits they are seeing more of it in the breed and the AD breed is prone to it (Rank 88 of 160 breeds) by the OFA. \\\'We are seeing hip problems more often than we would like to in our rescue Airedales.\\\' www.offa.org/stats_hip.htmlHip dysplasia is genetic, and is passed down from dogs to their puppies, and imo, breeding symptom-free dogs is important. Breeding two animals with excellent hips still won’t guarantee that all of the puppies will be free of hip dysplasia, but you’ll have a better chance of getting a dysplasia-free pup than if you breed two animals with fair or poor hips and dont examine\\\' FCI Breed clubs have such standards. \'As far as I\'m concerned, if you want a lab or a mal or a pointer, you should get one\' Thanks thisteldale.. Ive worked with these breeds and like them, by and large.
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Post by thistlesdale on Jul 27, 2011 17:22:22 GMT -5
breeding symptom-free dogs is important. you didn't say "symptom free" you said xray Breeding two animals with excellent hips still won’t guarantee that all of the puppies will be free of hip dysplasia, but you’ll have a better chance of getting a dysplasia-free pup than if you breed two animals with fair or poor hips and dont examine this is false Xrays don't improve the odds one bit on the contrary, dogs that produce HD get bred anyway, because they've been screened this happens ALL the time, hence the fact that HD is on the rise FCI Breed clubs have such standards. FCI is rampant w/ HD I don't dispute your ability as a trainer, but I question your knowledge of inheritance... the FCI's new COI 6.25% model is totally unsustainable Ive worked with these breeds and like them, by and large. I like them by and large as well, but don't care to own one myself
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